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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:22 PM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 07:11 PM:

Summoning looks really overpowered, and we’re trying to figure out if we can keep the mechanic without it ruining the game.

Some ideas:

  • Summoning just puts a piece on the board once in the game, akin to Seirawan (Sharper) chess.
  • My proposal to give the other player an extra move after a summoning is done.

I mentioned Zillions, but, of course, Fairy Max might be able to implement the summoning mechanic to playtest just what compensation we need to give the other player when invoked (unrestricted extra move, restricted extra move, etc.).


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:11 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:36 PM:

There is nothing wrong with the mechanism of summoning itself. What wrecks things is that you automatically get the Demon back in hand when it gets captured.

Compared to how other pieces normally put themselves at risk when capturing a piece, this is like giving one piece a WMD. So, I would propose putting some kind of restriction or limitation on this.

Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though.

Where does this come in? Summoning is a full move, and I didn't see any mention of lettings players move twice in a turn.

Nevermind. I see it is a cost to summoning that Sam proposed. It's not in the creator's description of the game.


Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:10 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 06:52 PM:

Since I didn’t make this clear: The opponent wouldn’t get to keep their extra move “in pocket”. When a summoning is done, the opponent then makes two moves immediately afterwards.

It’s true an extra move is very powerful, but having a replaceable piece which is only fully removed from the game when the summoner is captured is very powerful too. [1] If the two moves end up being too much compensation for the summoned piece, we can hobble that too (the extra move can not capture, one piece can not move twice, etc.)

I agree we need some playtesting to here to find out how much compensation we give the other player for the summoned piece getting placed on the board. It’s like changing the king’s move or how the pawns move: It changes the nature of the game enough that extensive playtesting is needed to see if it unbalances the game to the point it’s a forced win for the first player, or (especially if making the king too powerful) if it makes the game an easy draw.

This is also why I still like Zillions, some two decades after the program was last updated: Zillions is a relatively easy way to playtest game mechanics like this one.

[1] A game with summoning and drops can make the summoning less unbalanced too, since we can come up with some way of combining those mechanics to balance the summoning. Another option is to go the Seirawan route and only allow a summoning of a piece to be done precisely once.


Bn Em wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 06:52 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:36 PM:

Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though. In the opening you might get away with it, but in a typical middle-game position the opponent would use those to make a hit-and-run capture.

To be fair, Fergus' solution to that issue is quite elegant imo, and even just restricting two consecutive moves by a single piece alleviates hit‐and‐runs per se. It may be getting away from the intended point of this variant to introduce a whole nother idea but it seems like a usable way of introducing multi‐moves into a mostly‐single‐move game without breaking things too much


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 06:36 PM UTC:

There is nothing wrong with the mechanism of summoning itself. What wrecks things is that you automatically get the Demon back in hand when it gets captured. That effectively makes it an 'iron piece'. Giving the opponent two moves, knowing that he has those, is too costly, though. In the opening you might get away with it, but in a typical middle-game position the opponent would use those to make a hit-and-run capture.

Furthermore, summoning a Demon for free seems too easy; in horror stories one typically has to make some sacrifice as part of a summoning ritual. Using this concept the following might work: to summon a Demon, the Mage should first capture a friendly piece. That will then 'activate' him for summoning a Demon in the next turn. But depending on what the opponent does in his turn, you might pass on the opportunity to summon, and do something else. That would waste the opportunity to summon, and you would only regain it by capturing another friendly piece.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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Decimaka (revised). Game where pieces promote on making a capture. (10x10) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 04:32 PM UTC:

This is looking better now, and I have unhid it.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Samuel Trenholme wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 03:59 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 01:51 PM:

“I am starting to suspect that this summoning business will sort of spoil the game. Because you get the Demons back whenever you lose them, at the cost of only a tempo.”

One thought I have been having is to make a summon cost two tempo: You can summon a piece, but when you do, your opponent gets an extra move.

Let’s imagine, for the sake of simplicity, a Seirawan Chess variant where instead of the “add the piece when moving a piece in the back rank” rule, the knight can summon the Elephant (Seirawan’s nomenclature for the R+N Cardinal/Marshal) next to it, and a bishop can summon a hawk (B+N, i.e. Archbishop), but each time a summoning is done it costs two tempo.

Here’s how a game could start out:

  1. Nf3 d5
  2. E@g3 e5,Nf6

We could write the score like this too, if preferred:

  1. Nf3 d5
  2. E@g3 e5
  3. (Tempo lost after summoning) Nf6

Here, White opens with Nf3, Black responds d5

Next, White summons an Elephant on to g3 (I’m using Crazyhouse notation, which is fitting because Seirawan himself frequently plays Crazyhouse on Lichess). Because White has performed a summoning, Black now gets a bonus move, so Black moves e5 then Nf6.

If the other player responds to the summoning with a summoning as their first move, they don’t get the second bonus move. If they respond to the summoning with a summoning on their bonus move, the other player gets a bonus move, e.g.:

  1. Nf3 Nc6
  2. E@g3 E@b6

or

  1. Nf3 Nc6
  2. E@g3 d5,E@b6
  3. e4,d4

I think the summoning mechanic is very unique and creative, but it might give White a won game, but maybe we can hobble it to keep it usable.


DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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ArchMage Chess. 10x10 30v30 Fantasy Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 01:51 PM UTC:

I am starting to suspect that this summoning business will sort of spoil the game. Because you get the Demons back whenever you lose them, at the cost of only a tempo. The most effective strategy thus seems to simply keep summonig them in a developed location, and immediately send them on a kamikaze mission against whatever opponent is in their path. Even a Pawn is usually worth more than a tempo. You would not even care whether the square you summon them on is in a location that the opponent attacks once, as when the Demon(ess) gets captured you recapture with the Mage or Sorceress, and would still have traded the indestructible Demon for some opponent material.


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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Decimaka (revised). Game where pieces promote on making a capture. (10x10) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 08:13 AM UTC in reply to Daniel Zacharias from 07:51 AM:

The Pieces section is slightly awkward to read since the promoted forms sometimes show up before the unpromoted pieces and they aren't arranged in any obvious pattern.

OK, I cured this by sorting the piece descriptions from weak to strong, and by putting the promoted versions near the end. For each unpromoted piece it now also mentions what it promotes to.


Daniel Zacharias wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 07:51 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:23 AM:

The rules are clear to me. The Pieces section is slightly awkward to read since the promoted forms sometimes show up before the unpromoted pieces and they aren't arranged in any obvious pattern.


DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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Decimaka (revised). Game where pieces promote on making a capture. (10x10) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, May 20, 2022 06:23 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from Thu May 19 11:01 PM:

It's not clear what the rules of promotion are in this game.

Since about three quarters of the article's text is devoted to explaining just that, this is a bit disappointing. The Rules section is almost entirely devoted to explaining when you must promote, and explains contageon; and both the Pieces and the Notes section both mention what promotes to what. So what exactly is not clear about them? Is it that it should be stated explicitly that there never is any choice what to promote to?


Parahouse. Members-Only Shogi + Strong pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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DrZ's Chess. Members-Only Chess with a 3rd row added behind and new pieces. (8x10, Cells: 80) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

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