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I'll add <b>Ruddigore Chess</b> to my 'to do' list, but since that's already 1.83 miles long, don't expect it this quarter. But I will almost
certainly write a Zillions Rules File for it, and bully poor Tony Quintanilla into playing it with me by e-mail so I can see if it works or not before publishing. Someday.
<p>
(I realize I don't <em>need</em> Zillions to play the game by e-mail, but it makes it more convenient and enforces rules that might get missed. Also, I find programming a game a good way to examine a game's rules in details.)
So, given the amount of chatter about Chatter Chess and Ruddigore Chess and so on, do we need 'virtual' comment pages so we can discuss variants that haven't actually been posted? Then, going forward, the comments will be where they belong. I mean, who's going to think about looking for comments about Ruddigore Chess attached to the Archoniclastic Chess page? Also, to David, I like the little subtle link to the recent comments at the top of the What's New page, but I don't think in GMT. Maybe we could include the current time in GMT, or the time elapsed since the last comment, or something like that.
Peter, I've recently been playing Grand Camelot in another venue. Grand Camelot is a four-player version of Parker Brothers Camelot game. (To the peanut gallery: Yes, I know it's not a chess variant; let me finish.) Grand Camelot has two unusual features for a four-player game: 1 - Partners sit side by side. Translating to this game, Red and Green would be partners against Yellow and Black. 2 - The turn sequence is a 'figure-8'. Translated to Chaturanga 4-84, that would be Red - Yellow - Green - Black (repeat) This small change works surprisingly well, and I've wondered if it would be as successful in a 4-player CV like this. I generally find 4-player abstract strategy board games annoying, but Grand Camelot is lots of fun and very exciting. Also, the comment about the ZRF being double-dummy brought an idea to mind. Has there been a CV (e.g. Bridge Chess or Whist Chess) where the players bid to achieve a certain outcome? The partner of the 'declarer' sits out, and the defenders play without communication. This might be a possible thing to design. One could even play a Feeback version with ones physician, attorney, and accountant.
<P>A CV in which the players have goals is my Hi-Lo Chess, in which each player secretly selects one of the goals W, L, D, WL, WD, LD, or WLD.<P>In order to get more variety in the selection, we used to write a pack of paper slips with goals and require the players to shuffle and use the top goal from the pack.<P>
There must be a 'mate me' rule and a 'perp me' rule -- if at the end of your move your opponent has a mate in 1 or a perpetual check, you can require that it be played.<P>
Scoring: if you have one goal and achieve that goal you get 1 point for the game; if you have 2 goals you get 1/2 point if you succeed. If you have all 3 goals, you get 1/3 point no matter what -- you can gain by preventing your opponent from achieving his goal.<P>
Inspiration: High-Low Poker.<P>
<HR>
Hi-LO Chess is extremely well tested, I have played more than a hundred games face-to-face with a human opponent. Fro the number of games played, you can guess that it's an enjoyable game.<P>
It's a game of incomplete information. You try to guess your opponent's goal while concealing your own; and then you can plan and execute a brilliant combination the purpose of which is to checkmate yourself.<P>
I don't remember the date of Hi-Lo, but it's probably late 1960s.<P>
Well, the game has been played a fair number of times against the computer
and at least once by e-mail vs a human opponent, and it seemed to play
fairly well (of course, there might be something wrong with it, after all
I <em>lost</em> :)).
<hr>
A play order of AABB instead of the more usual ABAB for a four-player
partnership game transforms it into a limited double-move variant, rather
like one whose name I can't recall, where you get to move a piece on the
left side of the board and one on the right side each turn. Limited
double-move variants tend to be fun and exciting, so I can see the appeal,
and spliting the double-move between partners has some piquant aspects,
particularly if communications are restricted and reading minds is not at
least one of the partner's strengths. I think I may add an AABB variant
as to the Chaturanga 4-84's ZRF (still double-dummy, alas).
<p>
As for bid multiplayer Chess with a dummy . . . Could be done. Should it? :)
<hr>
Thanks for the kind words, Tony.
By the way, if anyone were interested, the link to the World Camelot Federation website, where the rules of Grand Camelot are posted is: http://communities.msn.com/WORLDCAMELOTFEDERATION
A variant has been added where both moves of a side are made in sequence, instead of alternating; a sort of limited double-move version. Thanks to John Lawson for the idea!
While I agree that discussions of new game ideas are valuable, I don't think they are appropriate for the feedback and rating system. It's better to keep the discussions relating to a particular page on our internal feedback system, and use our discussion group when the commentary digresses to new game ideas. The discussion group has many more features than my crude feedback system, so I think it's better to use that. That is, unless you want me to build a discussion group system that lives on the chess variant pages... :)
It would seem kind of redundent to have you build a discussion group when
we already have one. However. There would be some advantages to a
home-built discussion board:
<ul>
<p>
<li>It could be integrated with the comment system. What
<strong>I</strong> would like to have is a single system
where both comments and general discussion are displayed
in order of posting. It seems awkward to me to have two
different systems with two different user interfaces for
one purpose: discussing Chess variants. And
I know for a fact there are for both people who use one but
not the other.</li>
<p>
<li>It would be faster (it would hard to be slower!).</li>
<p>
<li>It wouldn't have all of the stupid advertising the current
incarnation of the discussion group has.</li>
</ul>
<p>
But still, it would seem like a lot of work for something which
we already have, if not in ideal form.
I fall between Peter and David here. When I write a comment, I don't really plan it. Something in the page, or another comment sets me off, and I just start writing. If it leads somewhere not completely germaine to the page being commented on, so be it. BUT, the result is that discussions that are potentially interesting or inspiring get buried attached to pages that effectively conceal them from later browsers. (Look at the recent discussion attached to the 'Archoniclastic Chess' page.) To do the thing properly, comments should be limited to the variant they are attached to, and any flight of fancy should be moved to the discussion group. I think this is against human nature (at least mine) and I would probably never make 50% of those posts. Furthermore, the discussion group posting may be cryptic outside of context of the variant page that inspired it. On the other side, the number of people 'misusing' the comment system are relatively small. It would be a huge waste of time and resources to build a parallel discussion system for a handful of 'chatterers'. Also, the public discussion board has a better possibility of attracting random searchers. Maybe a compromise is possible. Let me note here that I am no programmer, and I have no idea how difficult any particular idea would be to implement. An idea that seems simple to me might be to allow the writer of an extended comment to select a small set of keywords ('Ruddigore', 'double-move') which the comment system could also search for. Better ideas?
The comment system allows you to see the whole discussion on one page, instead of needing to access (and then page down past all the garbage) a new page for each message. This is a huge advantage, and I expect that people will abandon the yahoo thingy and flock to the chessvariants.com comment pages.
Ok, I'll look into extending the feedback system to allow some sort of
message threading based on something other than existing pages. I
understand why people do not like the yahoo group system, although it does
have some nice features. Give me a few days to come up with something.
You know, I can't see any reason (aside from restraint) why stepping
pieces couldn't take advantage of chatter even if they can't create it
(sort of like a low-power line mixed in with higher-power lines).
Then, if a stepper could move to
a square containing a rider's line, it could ride away on it!
In that case, castling and Pawn-double-step could definitely generate
chatter lines (and we'd have to distinguish between capturing and
non-capturing chatter lines). Of course, chasing down a King supported by a Bishop could
be rather difficult . . .
<p>
The above would probably result in a fairly crazy game, but it would also
come closer to working with different armies.
<p>
And for the list of possibly unplayable games, I'd like to add
<u><a href='../d.betza/chessvar/confu01.html'>Confusion 1b</a> Chatter
Chess</u>.
That was an excellent chatter response. Responsible usage of the rules tells us that a piece which takes only one step ends its move after that one step and therefore is not eligible to chatter. However, your idea sounds like a lot of fun! One can always arbitrarily restrict Kings and Pawns from participating in the fun; and I think this would be necessary, not only because it appears to be too difficult to chase down a King supported by multiple riders (note that 'a K supported by a Bishop' can only run towards the Bishop), but also because the offensive uses of Chattering Pawns would dominate the game, as they do in N-Relay II. Decimal Chatter Chess, on a 10x10 board, would become quite interesting if you had the Pawns on the third rank, all Riders on the first, and a second rank full of weak steppers -- the usual suspects, W, F, Crab, Barc, A, and D -- because the early play would be dominated by the weak pieces being thrown forwards by the power of the riders. You'd need to arrange your pieces very carefully, making room for the weak pieces to get past the Pawns, setting up intersecting lines for the riders, and putting the weakies where they could join in the fray but not get in the way. All the while trying to maintain a defense against the pesky foe.
People should know that the excellent diagram that makes it so easy to visualize the chatter moves was added by the editor, not the author. The editor gets an 'excellent' rating for this page.
I would like to announce that I am going to be running an Omegachess tournament by email on Richard's Play By Email server at http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv In order to play in the tournament you must have a PBM userid. Check out http://www.gamerz.net/tutorial.html and http://www.gamerz.net/commands.html if you are new and want to sign up for a free userid and password on the server. You do not have to have ever played Omegachess before on the server to compete in this tournament. If you would like to play in the event please email me your PBM userid to DavidNYJfan@hotmail.com I have not yet decided exactly how I am going to structure the Omega tournament. It will probably be a round robin tournament, with between 4 to 8 games in the first round, and a certain number of players advancing to a second and final round. I would also like to announce that I am also going to run a chess tournament on PBM too. This is traditional orthodox chess! This tournament is open to the first 25 players who email me to enter. I will be creating five 5-man sections. Each player will play a total of 4 games, 2 as white and 2 as black, one game against each of the other players in the tournament. The 5 section winners will then advance to a final 5-man section for the championship of the tournament. In the event of a tie for first place in a section the first tiebreaker is head-to-head result. In the event of a draw or a 3-way tie where A beat B, B beat C and C beat A, all tied players advance to the finals and a larger final section will be created. Again, to compete in this tournament you must have a PBM userid. You may enter both tournaments if you like. When emailing me please make sure to specify which tournament you are entering. Thanks again and good luck!!
I had not played chess in 40 years. It was a great refresher; covered all
the rules in a straight-forward manner. Nice job.
Very informative! But are the listings for clubs, organizations, and
world's strongest players current?
Ok guys, I've created a minimal discussion system. Feel free to start using
it (and breaking it). I still have more work to do, but it's basically
functional. Please do let me know if you have any particular requests or
criticisms (or kudos :)...
I just visted <a href='http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.games.chinese-chess'>rec.games.chinese-chess</a> on dejanews.com and it appears as if the FAQ hasn't been updated in some years. If anyone knows where we can get an up-to-date (or more up-to-date) FAQ document, please contact us. Thanks.
Just as a note from the author: Ed's variant of doing queen attacks does work well, also. But don't get too trigger-happy- it's good defense. Make sure you don't get blindsided by a bishop in the classic variant! The major downside to the queen shot variant is that then you can't reasonably use a bishop to move in for the kill; you pretty much have to lose two pieces to the shotgun, unless you use knights well... -- Adam Norberg (sgamer [att] swbell [dott] net )
I'd like to see this article expanded to include other types of ...er.. cursed pieces and cursed players. For example, how about Restless (or Hyperactive or Flying Dutchman) pieces that have to be moved each turn (e.g., the King in Triplets)? Or how about the Ruddigore Chess curse that requires a player to capture an enemy or discard a friend at each turn? (By the way, a similar curse is imposed on the players of Sudden Death Chess.) Perhaps you could also include Hesistant (or Hamlet?) pieces that require two or more turns to move (somewhat like Ralph Betza's Inchworms). Finally, how about Cuckoo pieces that can only capture friendly pieces? (Some species of cuckoo place their eggs in nests of birds of other species.)
thank you for the rules for space chess. I too lost the directions to my
set years ago. My set was purchased at a game store in 1994as well, looks
extactly like the one you have placed on the web, but the box it came in
says 1981 Pacific Game Company,INC. no. 1420
I know I'm just being a pest, but maybe the default number of comments that
are on the new comments page should be rather less than 100. It loads
really fast, but if there are 100 long comments, it could take a while for
us poor benighted souls who live too far out in the boondocks to have DSL,
and don't wish to pay our cable companies triple per month. If they were
just 'Excellent, great job!' it would be OK, but when some of those wordy
people start writing, and talking about things that aren't even chess
variants, well.....
More than excellent, superb! Harry Bird is one of history's greatest non-GM chessplayers. His originality combined with his longevity (he played against Morphy, and he played against Lasker, maybe even against Vidmar, if I remember rightly) combined with his strength (not a world champion, but surely stronger than me) make him one of the more interesting personalities in modern chess history. I have often heard of this book, but was never fortunate enough to find a copy. Now I can read it at last. More than superb, optimal!
Bird lost a match to Steinitz by a mrer 7 to 6. 'Bird is one of history's greatest non-GM chessplayers.' I said, but I was wrong. Steinitz was a tough cookie. Losing 7-6 makes Bird a GM in my estimation. More than superb, optimal!
The book itself is very disorganized and tough to read, with many passages that are repetitive and uninteresting. However, enough of Bird's personality shines through that I am glad to have made his acquaintance. To correct what I said earlier about the time of his career -- it was from before the first tournament up to the times of Lasker.
Project Gutenberg also has Edward Lasker's 'Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership'. Here's a link to it. If enough folks want this on our site as a web page, I'll create it. Otherwise, here's the link to it on PG's web site: <a href='http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext04/lchch10.txt'>Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership</a> (text file).
Good point John -- I have changed the default to 25. Now the question is,
should the default be summary mode or detail mode??
Detail mode. This is how I use the comments: I arrive at the What's New page via bookmark. If there is a new topic of interest, I investigate, and comment if inspired. If the 'last comment' time is more recent than the last time I logged on, I review the recent comments. A minimal visit is two clicks (What's New, recent comments). Usually I visit at least every other day. If the comments were in summary, I would have to expand each one to see what it's about. By way of explanation, I attempt to reduce the amount of typing and mousing I do to a minimum. Many of my older, professional IT colleagues have become diabled due to repetitive motion injuries. I have many years left to work, and I spend 8 hours a day in front of my workstation earning a living, then come home and play with my personal computer. I would like to be able to enjoy my computer in retirement without wrist braces and voice response.
I think I was a little unclear about my idea. A stepping piece would move
on a chatter line if one of the squares that it could move to was on that
chatter line. Thus, a player with a King on <b>a3</b>, and a Bishop on
<b>a1</b>, with the Bishop having a clear move to <b>h8</b> could move the
King all the way to <b>h8</b>. Which is why it could be hard to run down
the King without disposing of the Bishop first.
<p>
But in any case, your suggestion to exclude the King and Pawns from this
behavior is probably wise, leaving it for various Faerie and CDA pieces in
their stepping moves.
This appears to be an excellent game, with a lot of thought and effort. Is it a chess variant? Not really, even though it uses chess pieces. It's a mathematical (topology) abstract game, and you might find many fans for it in rec.games.abstract -- give it a try! Many abstract mathematical games become popular and widely played, but the market for them is not 'chess variant' people. I haven't tried Chain of Fools, but if it's as good as it looks you'd be doing yourself a big favor by taking the game over to rec.games.abstract, where you can find folks who will really appreciate it.
I agree with John Lawson.
chessvariants could have a page with links to all known downloadable chess
books...
It's amazing what range can be found among these entries, unified only by one simple requirement and the ethereal concept of 'chess'. This was fun!
I recently sent in a nomination to make this game--a well-established,
widely-disseminated, thoroughly-played design--a 'recognized' variant. If
you agree, send the editors an email. :)
Author's note: I'd like to see this in Zillions. --Adam Norberg
This looks like fun! I particularly like that once you overprotect a Pawn
by two (easy enough -- just take an unattacked Pawn and give it two
supporters), suddenly it captures forward and to the side.
<p>
I find myself wondering if overprotection is calculated recursively. That
is, when determining overprotection, is overprotection taken into account?
<p>
Consider the following:
<blockquote>
White Pawns at <b>a3</b>, <b>b4</b> and <b>c3</b>;
<p>
Black Pawns at <b>a6</b>, <b>b5</b> and <b>c6</b>.
</blockquote>
Assume white's move. Can the white Pawn on <b>b4</b> capture the black
Pawn on <b>b5</b>? If you apply white's Wazir capture first, then it
can (since it is overprotected by two, black not having a Wazir capture
as it is only overprotected by one), if you apply black's Wazir capture
first, it can not (since then the white Pawn will only be overprotected by
one). Curious, no?
I'm considering adding a section to the Chess Variant Pages for chess
eBooks. Right now I'm aware of only two: Chess History and Reminiscences by
H.E. Bird, and Edward Lasker's Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership.
Both are Project Gutenberg files. Does anyone know of any other online
chess eBooks?
A Pawn or piece must be attacked in order to be overprotected. I said that, right? 'and dynamic' ... 'where checkmating the opponent could also checkmate you!' means that the enemy K is defended several times (but of course not attacked) so that when you attack the enemy K it becomes overprotected and gives check to your nearby King. I could have made that clearer, right? But you're correct, even the closest reading of this doesn't really say whether it's recursive. Yes, why not recursive, gosh darn it and gosh darn it again? If you could overprotect an unattacked piece, this would 'merely' be a new (and perhaps an excellent) form of Relay Chess. So, should add a line that the powers gained by an overprotected piece can be used to overprotect another piece. Should add a line 'therefore you can destroy your opponent's overprotection by moving your attacker away'. And should add the explanation of how giving check[mate] can check[mate] yourself. Better now?
When Nemoroth finally appears, you will be amazed by the piece called the Wounded Fiend, and the distant resemblance to the Tron Queen. There must be something in the air that makes people come up with similar ideas at nearly the same time.
Busy editorial beavers have made the requested edits to this page, all the
while whistling the 'Happy Editor' song.
<p>
Ok, I read the part about having to be attacked to be overprotected, but
somehow it didn't sink in. But there's still a lovely paradox here.
<p>
Consider:
<blockquote>
White has Pawns on <b>a3</b>, <b>b4</b> and <b>c3</b>, and a Rook on
<b>b1</b>.
<p>
Black has Pawns on <b>a6</b>, <b>b5</b> and <b>c6</b>, a Rook on <b>b8</b>,
and a Bishop on <b>d6</b>.
</blockquote>
The white Pawn on <b>b4</b> is attacked by one piece, and defended by
three, so it can move and capture as a Wazir. Which means it attacks the
black Pawn on <b>b5</b>. The black Pawn is then attacked by one, and
defended by three, so <em>it</em> can now move and capture like a Wazir.
But this reduces the white Pawn on <b>b4</b> from being overprotected by
two to being overprotected by one, which means it can no longer capture
the black Pawn at <b>b5</b>. But if it can not capture the black Pawn at
<b>b5</b>, the black Pawn isn't attacked, and so can't capture the white
Pawn which suddenly overprotected by two, which means it <em>can</em>
capture the black Pawn. But it can't . . .
I've heard vague rumours that this game, or a game very much like it, is still played at Miskatonic University... The excellent rating applies to presentation and originality. I have not playtested this game (yet). Truth be told, I'm not sure I *want* to! :)
This is something new in a way, or at least something not often done. It
is a game where the two sides, while having the same movement, have
different board topologies to deal with in the opening and midgame, and I
think it an interesting idea. Now, if there was just some way to determine
if it was balanced . . .
Absolutely great, in coherence of theme and originality!
Apart from the paradox problem, the need to take into account temporary powers makes assessment of overprotection a bit complicated. I would suggest ignoring temporary powers in assessing overprotection.
This variant seems to favor Black materially by at least a pawn.
I thought this page was good becuase it gave you all the rules. They wer eeasy to understand and showed diagrams for furthur clarification
Wow!! Who said theme doesn't count in abstract games? I want to play this, but I think I'm going to be disapointed when the pieces remain silent. I want to see a ZRF, but not too soon. Whoever does it needs to do a good job on the graphics, not to mention audio, to do the game justice. 'What eldritch noise did I hear?' Perhaps the screech of the El.
You have trapped me and won the game of game-making! You suggested recursive, and I said 'sure, okay', and then you hoisteded me with me own petard by pointing out a most ingenious paradox, more ingenious than Doctors Einstein and Schweitzer. I am bereft, like an apprentice to Pilate. Where can I find an mp3 of busy editorial beavers whistling the 'Happy Editor' song as they undo a previous change?
Shall we go with Tony Paletta's suggestion, and avoid all temporary powers
when calculating overprotection? It does make it simpler, and importantly
improves clarity.
'Favors Black, you think? Then perhaps you will be willing to offer me substantial odds as we play a game for some enormous stake of money, perhaps a penny on a1 doubled on each successive square?' I had almost put the above statement into the story of getting a regular chessplayer to play Chigorin Chess, somewhere after the part where 'variant rhymes with deviant and that starts with d and rhymes with t and stands for trouble.', and way after the part where the regular chessplayer says with a sneer is that some kind of fairy chess.... (I'm not suggesting that you're the offensive non-PC 'regular chessplayer'; the misinformation about relative values of N and B is part of general unwisdom, that's all.) Read any monograph on the Chigorin Defense. You'll find that many players now believe the N to be superior in the early stages of the game, which agrees with my findings on the theory of chess values so I think it must be right. Given the advantage of the first move to go with the advantage of fast development, the *white* side in Chigorin Chess probably has a large advantage. In order to Castle K-side, Black needs to move two Pawns and two Bishops; and one of those P moves looks suspiciously like a weakening move. White can go 5.O-O at the earliest, but Black can choose to go 3...O-O; think about it! And, of course, this is the whole point of Chigorin Chess! You can get a 'regular chessplayer' to play, because he will want to prove that the Bishops are so much superior...
Yes, I'm afraid that recursion (drat and drat again) must be explicitly
forbidden, which is too bad because it sounded like fun.
It recently occurred to me that I might have named the Zombie an Iron Golem so that its dissolution by ichor would be a nethack reference. But perhaps that would have been inappropriate after all. Lovecraft never played a game of Nethack in his life.
Very interesting. 1. At first sight, the board seems unbalanced because a Black R at b6 attacks both b2 and c2, but a WR b3 does not get its power doubled. I would suggest that in the long run this advantage is much greater than W's advantage of first move. 2. The Bf1 can't go to c4, right? Perhaps Bishops should be replaced by something else. (Not zFF, that would increase Black's advantage.) 3. A Knightrider on a6 attacks both f2 and e2, right? And a Rose on h6 attacks both d3 and e3, and therefore... interesting.
Changes made as best I understood.
<p>
Alas, the Happy Editor song can never be written down or recorded, lest the
secret society of web editors silence y
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