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It takes many tempi to attempt to promote a Lance. Edge attacks have never been my favorite, so I haven't had much experience in playing for such promotions, until very late in games. However, based off opponents who have tried to move along the edge files, and my defense against such attacks, I have concluded that early edge pushes require at least 20 tempi of preparation to be mildly successsful, against someone who is not exactly interested in the same. A player can comfortably defend, at least for a while, but the edge file attacker can get through at least one promotion exchange if they put enough in it, this usually being some exchange like Dragon-promoting for Rook. A player must be particularly careless to allow a Lance to promote safely and flee.
Overall, I don't rate Lances that highly, perhaps around the same as a Kirin.
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, Jun 13, 2020 02:58 PM UTC:Well, it estimates about 450 for both Kirin and Lance! (to compare: 480 for Bishop.) It differs a bit each time, as the estimation process involves random sampling.
Using my (pre-adjustment) piece value table, under early middlegame, the value ranges given are as follows:
- Pawn -2.5/4/6 (Tokin 9/9.5/10)
- Go-between 8/8.5/10
- Bronze 6/8/9
- Silver 8.5/10.5/11
- Leopard 9.5/10.5/11
- Lance 14.5/16 (White Horse 25/26/27)
- Kirin 18/19/20
- Bishop 24/26/29
Then I adjust the values using things I know about the position, which can easily swing them a further 20% for ranged pieces, 40% for small pieces, and 200% for individual pawns.
I wrote the table to suit my personal style, at the behest of one Andrej Trauner, so it may not be applicable to others. I believe it a safe assumption that my table is the most thorough estimate of chu shogi piece values in existence, especially when combined with the list of adjustments, which only exists in my head.
I don't put too much weight on material advantage when playing. It only accounts for roughly 35% of my evaluation, compared to about 60% for purely positional considerations.
If you are okay, Can i know where and how did you use the mnemonic characters?
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Jul 16, 2020 02:14 PM UTC:They are in graphicsDir=/membergraphics/MSdaishogi/ .
Just go to the web page http://chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSdaishogi to see how they are named.
Hello, H.G. Muller!
So, if I understand right, you weren't drawing it by yourself?
Recently one man named Joe Henbethydd have developed a Chu Shogi program with a pleasant interface. I took participation in its localization to English. You can try it yourself here http://anubhuuti.com/chudo/
As I understand, he is planning include multiplayer game over network in future, also I hope, he is planning include another Large-boards variants of shogi like Maka Dai Dai Shogi etc. But it is not exact. Time will tell.
For popularization purposes of Chu Shogi there is a nice idea to use mnemonic pictures representing piece's moves. I really like it, and I use it as my memory sheets, and also I use it when teaching peoples how to play Chu Shogi.
It is nice if we would integrate such mnemonic pics into ChuDo program of Joe Henbethydd, but unfortunately, the pics are somebit a low quality (I mean low resolution). It is nice, if we have at least 200x200 sized images, or (which is better) vector images.
At the moment we don't have any artist which could draw for us such image assets.
So the question is - where did you actually get the mnemonic pics? Have you drawn them by yourself, or you just used already existing images, which is located in the link you provided?
Anyway nice to meet you, and hope we shall some time play Chu Shogi or another Large-board variant of shogi.
P.S. By the way, do you have any page on Facebook? There is a Chu Shogi group, maybe we can find each another there and write one to another sometimes?
Sincerelly yours Alex Trick
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Oct 13, 2020 03:42 PM UTC in reply to Alex Trick from 02:26 PM:@Alex - The mnemonic pics here were copied from WinBoard by taking screenshots, where I used a general-purpose drawing program to make the background transparent. WinBoard creates those images on-the fly, from components that represent the move in one direction (but i a way depending on the range in adjacent directions), plus a central dot. In order to draw an edge around that for the outline pieces, it creates a black image first, and overlays it with a slightly smaller white image, so that a black outline remains. The largest size is 33x33, though, and the images are not anti-aliased.
I remember having made a set of SVG images for each of the individual pieces, for XBoard, though. I am pretty sure this includes all the Chu-Shogi pieces, and probably also the Wa-Shogi pieces. I would have to dig that up; I could not find it on my website.
Interesting that there now is a new Chu-Shogi engine. How strong is it, compared to HaChu?
As to larger variants: I have a pretty strong engine for Tenjiku Shogi. (Not yet released; I am still planning to do that.)
I am not on Facebook.
[Edit] Oh, I see. The engine actually is HaChu. It is only the interface that is new.
[Edit2] I found the SVG pieces, and uploaded the whole project to http://hgm.nubati.net/Mnemonic-S.tar.gz .
@Muller
Thank you very much for SVG pics! :) They're excellent!
In general we're going to popularize Chu Shogi and (I hope) the others Large-board shogi variants as well.
Mnemonic SVG images are extremely helpful for introducting the game for beginners and others who is afraid of japanese hieroghyphes. Especially including into account that Chu Shogi itself includes comparativelly so much pieces with different variants of move, that it's difficult to remember them in case you don't love it initially. What to tell about much larger variants of shogi with a much complicated move rules.
If we combine mnemonic pics with a pleasant (a bit beautiful) interface, move tips and learning for new players, add HaChu engine for playing with computer (I guess, your work?), and also add possibility to play with another peoples over network (planned in nearest future) - we'll get the platform that actually can be distributed around the world in a much easier way, than before.
For example, when 81dojo came into world, it popularized shogi around the world quicker. The analogue for the Chu Shogi - the Chu-Shogi Renmei 81client had a similar impact, but it still contains hieroglyphes (however it still has a nice interface through). For now Chu-Shogi Renmei 81client is under danger to be unavailable because of outdating of Flash Player technology. If after end of 2020 Flash Player apps will be actually blocked (forcefully), then the remaining variants to play over Internet would be a few. Maybe ChuDo will be one of most comfortable of them. That is the point - the more comfort - the more people coming, as there is easier to entry into the game.
I have registered on WinBoard forum, I'll take pleasure to contact you there via PM or any another way. If I understand correct, you're the only (or main) developer of WinBoard/XBoard programs, are you?
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Oct 14, 2020 04:48 PM UTC in reply to Alex Trick from 03:33 PM:Yes, HaChu was written by me, and yes, I am in practice the only WinBoard/XBoard developer. PM on WinBoard forum is not really a good way to reach me, as my inbox there is overflowing. TalkChess.com would be a better forum, but for private communication e-mail would be preferable. However, I usually prefer public over private communication; most things that are discussed tend to be useful for others as well.
The mnemonic pieces were indeed conceived from the wish to be able to play these horrendously large games with virtually no learning at all, because 95% of the piece symbols unambiguously indicates its move. So you only have to worry about a hand-full of (often very special and very powerful) pieces, such as Lions, Teaching Kings and Fire Demons.
It is great that you are working on a replacement for the 81Doju Chu-Shogi website. In practice it might be difficult to get the population of that website to migrate to yours, through, no matter how nice it is. Especially the Japanese players. Setting up a new site also means the loss of the database of all games that have been played so far. Perhaps it would have a better chance of success if you would just build a new client for the existing 81Dojo Chu server.
Can anyone tell me who made those geometric icons?
(The interactive diagram in the main text)
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Nov 9, 2021 05:00 PM UTC in reply to Daphne Snowmoon from 04:57 PM:I did.
Thanks for the reply!
This may be a rude question, so I apologize in advance
I would like to ask if I can use your geometric pieces
I think those geometric pieces are the most intuitive icons I've seen so far, yet they provide a familiar accessibility to beginners
Of course if I use it I will specify that it is made by you
If this was a burdensome question, I apologize again. Is it ok if I use it?
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Nov 9, 2021 07:20 PM UTC in reply to Daphne Snowmoon from 06:20 PM:Sure, you are welcome to use them. As far as I am concerned, they are public domain. I am happy you like them.
Really thanks !! 8ㅁ8
A. M. DeWitt wrote on Thu, May 11, 2023 08:29 PM UTC:I am thinking about doing something similar with a game called Dai Seireigi, which is basically Chu Shogi, but with drops and an altered piece/moveset roster to account for the drop rule. This includes replacing the Lion power with a "hit-and-run" ability that allows a piece to move or capture on a square and then move without capturing to a square adjacent to . This allows pieces with the ability to capture a piece in a certain direction and then maneuver into place to check the enemy King, while also not being too overpowered for the drop rule.
The Dai Seireigi Lion would have the hit-and-run ability in all directions, and a two-step area move, similar to that of the Tenjiku Shogi TSA Lion Hawk, but without the ability to return to its starting square (KmcamKaK).
However, I have an important question regarding anti-trading rules. Since in a game with drops no piece ever goes entirely out of play, would you need an anti-trading rule in such a game?
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, May 11, 2023 09:24 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 08:29 PM:Indeed anti-trading rules would seem useless for such games.
People have tried playing Chu Shogi with drops, but from what I heard this led to most of the board and pieces remaining completely untouched, with only activity in a small central corridor.
A. M. DeWitt wrote on Fri, May 12, 2023 03:15 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Thu May 11 09:24 PM:I'm guessing that's what happens when you use the drop rule with a game that wasn't designed for it. I'm attempting to solve this in Dai Seireigi by using the same forward bias found in regular Shogi.
Here's a prototype of what I have so far (You may need to view this comment by itself for the diagram to show, and some of the mnemonics are close approximations of the actual piece). Only the eight most valuable pieces are not subject to this forward bias, and the Falcon and Eagle (promoted Horse and Dragon) will be subject to it as well.
The promotions are not included, as I haven't sorted that out yet, except that the King, Lion, and Queen do not promote, pieces found in normal Seireigi promote as they do in that game, and that I plan on adding Korean-style hopping move (without restrictions on what it can do) for a few of these promotions.
This looks good. You could remove the Side Movers as they make the game too defensive, and the Coppers that promote to them at the same time. Lances that promote to Great Tigers cover at least the same movement capability as Side Movers.
Knights could move to where the Coppers are, allowing them to move freely in the opening.
The Drunk Elephant could also be removed as its promotion to Crown Prince would drag the game out needlessly.
A defender is needed for the second pawn (in particular) and second-to-last pawn. The Dragon Horse can capture and promote without being captured otherwise.
A. M. DeWitt wrote on Fri, May 12, 2023 08:12 PM UTC in reply to Edward Webb from 06:21 PM:This looks good. You could remove the Side Movers as they make the game too defensive, and the Coppers that promote to them at the same time. Lances that promote to Great Tigers cover at least the same movement capability as Side Movers.
The majority of the promotions won't be the same as in Chu Shogi, and this includes the Copper Generals, which would promote to a Silver General that can also jump to the second square orthogonally sideways or forward, or diagonally forward.
As it is now, the Side and Vertical movers can't move backward at all to try and ensure that they don't add too much to defense, but the sideways slide of the side movers may indeed be a problem. The question now is, what to replace them with?
The Drunk Elephant could also be removed as its promotion to Crown Prince would drag the game out needlessly.
I wasn't planning on having a piece that promoted to another royal, I can simply have the elephant (or its equivalent) not promote to begin with or make its promotion non-royal.
Knights could move to where the Coppers are, allowing them to move freely in the opening.
There is a defender (the Donkey). It works together with the Knight to protect the outer pawns from a distance, hence why the Knight is placed where it is. Like the current Side and Vertical Movers, the Donkey one of the pieces with no match in the Mnemonic piece directory for its Dai Seireigi move, and instead is being approximated, hence why you didn't see it initially.
The link section should mention that Chu Shogi is playable on https://lishogi.org now as well.
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, Nov 24, 2023 06:34 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 04:28 AM:The repetition rule is a modern contamination by Xiangqi. In the historic rules repetition was forbidden, but it is likely that perpetual checking was forbidden even more: some of the historic mating problems would have fast parasitic solutions if you could force a win by perpetual checking. It is also not clear whether repetition of positions was strictly forbidden, or making the same move from an earlier occurring position was.
The baring rule is also a modern invention; there is no historic evidence that it existed in the Edo period.
As Gbtami realized it’s playable on Lishogi.
A. M. DeWitt wrote on Thu, May 23 04:14 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★When I first saw this game, I didn't think much of it, since I was more focused on larger Shogi variants, especially Tenjiku Shogi. However, now I have a few games against Jocly under my belt, and wow, this game completely blew me away. It is an absolute joy to play, despite its size and complexity (which melts away after a couple games). However, it is not completely flawless.
Some rules, such as the King Baring rule (Uses Shatranj version, K+G vs. K is mentioned in historical sources) and repetition rules (borrowed from Xiangqi) that are currently played by are modern contaminations from other games and/or are warped versions of things mentioned in the historical documents, but I am willing to include these two rules, as they help with decisiveness without being redundant or overly complicated.
However, I am not willing to play by the "Okazaki" rule, and I would never recommend using it, which allows recapture of a Lion after another Lion has just been captured, if said Lion is unprotected. There is no evidence that it was a part of the historical game, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the rule against indirect Lion trading, so why did someone think it would be a good idea to have this? All it does is add confusion and increases the chance of a simplified game, detracting from the playerr experience.
It is also not clear whether a Lion taking a Pawn/Go Between and then a Lion is allowed if the enemy Lion is undefended after taking the Pawn. Both sides have evidence arguing for them (the hidden protector example for yes, a tsumeshogi in Dr. Eric Silverman's Chu Shogi Part II article, explained in the An interesting quirk in the Lion-trading rules section, for no). Personally, I prefer that is is allowed, since no recapture is possible after the move, and there is no specific mention of this situation in the historic rules.
However, despite these problems, Chu Shogi is still easily among the best games of its kind. If you like Chess variants, you should give it a try.
Addendum - An attempt at a drops-playable Chu Shogi variant
Chu Seireigi is an attempt to combine elements of Chu Shogi with the ruleset of modern Shogi. It also has the benefit of not needing any special rules to preserve its quality, fixing all the problems with the modern "innovations" for Chu Shogi that I mentioned above. Players are disincentivized from trading off the most powerful pieces in many cases because they would just go into the player's hands, making them even more dangerous. The repetition rule is simply that of Shogi (draw, except perpetual check loses), and the drops make King-baring extremely rare. However, this comes with the unfortunate downside of having to remove all the multi-move abilities from the game, as otherwise the balancing would be thrown off.
A. M. DeWitt wrote on Thu, May 23 04:37 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Fri Nov 24 2023 06:34 AM:Since there are some discrepancies between the current GC preset and the rules that most people have reached a consensus on (mainly having to do with the anti-Lion-trading rules), I will make a new preset that patches them up, and uses sets with larger graphics to make it more user-friendly (specifically, my large Mnemonic pieces, Eric Silverman's 1-kanji pieces, and Bob Greenwade's pictogram pieces, using the XBoard/Interactive Diagram IDs). I also plan on making the preset correctly exclude moves that violate the Lion trading rules when highlighting legal moves.
This new preset will be based on the fairychess codebase and its Chu Seireigi version, and the multi-move code I have in place for the current preset at the time of writing.
Changes coming in new Chu preset (TLDR):
- New graphics sets used (my large Mnemonic piece set, Eric Silverman's 1-Kanji set, and Bob Greenwade Pictogram set)
- Uses XBoard/Interactive Diagram IDs
- Correct exclusion of moves that violate the anti-Lion-trading rules
- Possibly options for certain game situations
- First Lion step after final destination: true or false
- King Baring (uses Shatranj version of the rules for simplicity): true or false
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Yes, of course it is very weak. It searches only 2 ply, and that isn't even enough to see a mate-in-1 threat coming. You can switch it to 3 ply, but in a game as large as Chu Shogi that would probably already make it think too long. This is JavaScript, not a C program!
I am sure I could make a search that plays much stronger with the same number of nodes. I put this one together in two days. But that is not meant as an excuse: I intend this thing to be weak. It is meant to be a demo for people that have never played the game before, and visit the page the diagram is on to learn about its rules, so they can have a sparring partner to get a whif of how the rules work out in practice.
Also note that it doesn't use any variant-specific knowledge other than the rules. It has to guess the piece values itself, and I am amazed of how reasonable these guesses appear to be. I made a version that also tries to weight in promotability, by making some weighted average of the values of base piece and promoted form, where the weight of the latter increases with the ease of its promotion and the relative gain of intrinsic value. That also looks reasonable, except that the current algorithm then puts an unexpectedly high value on the Lance. It seems this has the most favorable prospects for promotion, so that it assumes you would do your best to preserve it until it can actually promote, rather than lose it in tactics to clear the way for others. (Of course it doesn't realize the Lance is file bound, so that you really don't have much choice in the matter...). But now that I think about it, perhaps this is not such a silly thought. The Lance itself is pretty useless in combat, can reach the zone in a single move when the time comes, and a White Horse is one of the more valuable pieces.