Enter Your Reply The Comment You're Replying To H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 08:08 AM UTC:The main probem is not to devise a standard, but to get everyone to use it. And in interfacing one medum with another, the problem of how to represent the moves is a serious, but at the same time totally insignificant fraction of the problem. Take for example the Game-Courier server. Its main function is to allow people to play games using a browser as client. Now we don't control what browsers do, so the GC server has to adapt to the browser and send web pages (i.e. html code). This html code does not only contain the current move, but a graphical display of the board position (a FEN would certainy not do), the game history, graphics to explain the pieces, text to explain the rules, control elements to allow the user to step through the game history, etc. To get an idea what the GC server sends FOR EVERY MOVE, click 'View -> Source' in the browser menu while ou are logged in to GC. Now other game-play servers, even if they play through a browser like GC (and not through a specially downloaded client, like Internet Chess Servers, or through browser-loaded Java clients that use a dedicated TCP channel, like the Unspeakble server), will use completely differently formatted webpages, and might even use differently formatted webpages for each game they provide. Having standardized moves somewhere on those pages solves nothing. (Well, 0.1% of the problem, maybe.) The main problem is to identify the current move on such a huge web-page of unspecfied layout. To standardize the entire page would require most websites to give up the looks that define their identity, and you can be sure they will never do it. In addition, for merely exchanging the moves with an automated entity (rather than a Human using a browser), the entire webpages that are used now are extremely cumbersome, as 99% or more of what they contain is redundant information. The logical solution would be that websites like the GC server would provide, for each ongoing game, a separate access channel designed for automated play. Such an auxiliary 'web page' might contain nothing but the move. And it does not even have to be in html format, as it is not intended for browser viewing. It could even be a binary file, although I would not recommend that. The most logical choice would be a text file, that would contain nothing but the move, or (to allow viewers to come in during the game) the list of all moves so far. In fact something very similar to the format I use in the move.txt file that my Javascript viewer periodically downloads, when I am broadcasting the comp-comp games going on in my PC. (See http://home.hccnet.nl/h.g.muller/goths.html ) Of course all the GUIs you would want to interface to would have to be modified to become able to use this channel, and understand the format that it uses. No GUI I know does load webpages over the internet. They all open permanent TCP links to the server, as this offers two-way communication, which is much more efficient. (You don't have to incessantly poll the server to see if your opponent moved, but can wait idly until the server sends you the move.) Furthermore, note that Zillions of Games does not use a true GUI, as it is not capable of handling automated play between two different engines. In fact there is no way at all Zillions can communicate its moves to the outside world, apart from the outside world staring to the computer display and doing the image processing to interpret what it sees. ChessV does not have any GUI-engine separation at all, it is an integrated program, and not capable of playing games against entities that cannot look to the display either. Gregory has told me that the next version of ChessV will be a pure engine for running under WinBoard, though. As to Zillions: there exists an adaptor to use the Zillions (semi-)GUI with a WinBoard engine as AI, but not the inverse, which would allow you to use the Zillions AI as a WinBoard engine. The makers of Zillions told me that they are currently not contemplating of providing this capability, as they ae not sure there is any demand for it. Of course the Zillions AI is quite weak compared to dedicated engines, so setting it up for engine-engine matches would likely only generate bad publicity for Zillions. The only viable solution I see is that servers would provide an additional channel geared for dedicated-client (GUI) based play, next to the browser-based play they provide for Humans, and that a peudo-engine would be developed that can run under a GUI as any other engine, but in stead of thinking up moves, handle communication with the server. The logical choice for communication between GUI and pseudo-engine would of course be WinBoard protocol, as WinBoard is the only general purpose GUI that supports a wide range of Chess variants. For communication with the servers, the whole project would hinge on the willingness of game servers to provide the auxilliary channel according to the adopted standard. Edit Form You may not post a new comment, because ItemID Standards does not match any item.