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Comments by streetmansd
What happened to Gothic Chess? Looks like some effort was put into it and now it is floundering or dieing. Anyone know?
My questions are: 1. CONTRIBUTOR ID How do I get a contributor ID. I am not clear. Is is a necessary prerequisite or is it assigned when I send in a variation that is accepted? 2. WHERE TO SUBMIT When I submit a variant do I zip it up and email it to chessvar@yahoo.com or do I submit it through your web page that requires a contributor ID? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Thanks Joe! - As soon as my final proof reading is in I will submit my variation.
I am looking for a person or two outside my circle of play testers to play a game of a chess variation I have created. In this variant the two sides have pieces and pawns with different characteristics and capabilities. White has pawns, pieces, an initial placement, and moves in accord with the rules of orthodox chess. For Black, with the exception of their Kings, every playing piece moves differently from any piece found in orthodox chess. This variant is played on an 8x8 board and can be played with a standard chess set by substituting pieces as described in the rules. Years ago, a lot of them, at my best, my chess rating was 1620 to give you an idea of my chess strength. My objective is to “triple-check” the play balance of this very asymmetric chess variation. I am looking for someone who can make at least a few moves most days. If you are interested post here with your email address and I will send you a copy of version 1.09 of the rules.
H. G. Muller Thanks for your suggestion concerning applying Fairy-Max to my chess variant. I have just starting looking at chess variant playing software and there are a few. Before I download it and start trying to figure it out I have a question. Question: My chess variation is different in that one side (white) has one King and the other side (black) has two Kings. There are, consequently, very specific rules concerning checking the black King(s) and checkmate. For example when black has two kings in play they are immune to check but not immune if they are simultaneously checked. So I am wondering if this circumstance would preclude the use of Fairy-Max?
Where can I submit a variant html page with its related graphics all in a single zip file?
Ah, looks like the place to submit is chessvar@yahoo.com. I will give that a try.
Would anyone like to play a game of Spartan Chess?
I have submitted this chess version to Chess Variants and hope it will soon be posted.
In the meantime you can visit my web site for the rules: SpartanChessOnline.com
Spartan Chess Features:
• A Persian army (white) identical to that of orthodox chess
• A Spartan army led by two Kings
• Spartan pawns (hoplites) that move differently than orthodox pawns
• Spartan pieces that move differently than any found in orthodox chess
• No opening book
• No end game studies
• Asymmetric play and feel
• Can be played with a standard chess set
• Different victory conditions for both sides
So be warned, it is different. We can play via email and I can send a “snapshot” of the board after each of my moves.
I am happly to play as either Black (Spartan) or White (Persian).
You may contact me at: SpartanChessOnline@gmail.com
I have submitted this chess version to Chess Variants and hope it will soon be posted.
In the meantime you can visit my web site for the rules: SpartanChessOnline.com
Spartan Chess Features:
• A Persian army (white) identical to that of orthodox chess
• A Spartan army led by two Kings
• Spartan pawns (hoplites) that move differently than orthodox pawns
• Spartan pieces that move differently than any found in orthodox chess
• No opening book
• No end game studies
• Asymmetric play and feel
• Can be played with a standard chess set
• Different victory conditions for both sides
So be warned, it is different. We can play via email and I can send a “snapshot” of the board after each of my moves.
I am happly to play as either Black (Spartan) or White (Persian).
You may contact me at: SpartanChessOnline@gmail.com
-----From the rules------------
4.12 Persian Victory - The Persian (white) wins once one of the Spartan Kings is captured and the remaining Spartan King is checkmated or when both Spartan Kings are placed under simultaneous attack (duple-check) and neither King can be removed from attack on the next move (see 4.4 Duple-Check and Mate).
4.4 Duple-Check & Mate If both Spartan Kings are placed under simultaneous attack this is called duple-check (d+). It is illegal for the Spartan to make a move that will place his Kings in duple-check. The Spartan loses if on his move he is unable to escape duple-check in which case the game ends in a duple-checkmate (d#).
--------------------------------
As you can see the Spartan need merely to remove one King from duple-check.
As for the values of pieces.... boy oh boy do opinions vary and I am always open to learning what people have to say on the subject. On another site there is a pretty detailed analysis.
The beginning of this analysis shows values for the Queen: 8.75, the Chancellor (my General): 8.25 and the Archbishop (my Warlord): 6.50. At the end he shows the calculations done by Reinhard Scharnagl on a 8x8 board as Queen: 8.9531, the Chancellor: 8.3750 and the Archbishop: 6.5781.
I certainly did take liberties in rounding the figures off in my presentation which can be found here: http://spartanchessonline.com/values.html which I imagine from your comments you may have already looked at.
As for duple-check (I could not use double check since this is a term already understood in orthodox to mean something else) the balance and 'fun' of the game was improved in version 1.06 when duple-check was introduced. Once the minor pieces are traded off the Spartans can plod across the board shepherding the forces with their 2 Kings. Once duple-check was introduced there were some very dynamic games. The Spartans in the center of the board with the White Queen and rooks circling them from both flanks and the rear ranks duple-checking the Spartans frequently and eventually being able to work out a White win.
As for the value of 'simple' check immunity for the Spartan, that is a puzzler. It's worth something, maybe a lot. I do know that the first time a Spartan King played the move Kc4-b3+ (since it was then next to the White King) we did a lot of laughing.
4.12 Persian Victory - The Persian (white) wins once one of the Spartan Kings is captured and the remaining Spartan King is checkmated or when both Spartan Kings are placed under simultaneous attack (duple-check) and neither King can be removed from attack on the next move (see 4.4 Duple-Check and Mate).
4.4 Duple-Check & Mate If both Spartan Kings are placed under simultaneous attack this is called duple-check (d+). It is illegal for the Spartan to make a move that will place his Kings in duple-check. The Spartan loses if on his move he is unable to escape duple-check in which case the game ends in a duple-checkmate (d#).
--------------------------------
As you can see the Spartan need merely to remove one King from duple-check.
As for the values of pieces.... boy oh boy do opinions vary and I am always open to learning what people have to say on the subject. On another site there is a pretty detailed analysis.
The beginning of this analysis shows values for the Queen: 8.75, the Chancellor (my General): 8.25 and the Archbishop (my Warlord): 6.50. At the end he shows the calculations done by Reinhard Scharnagl on a 8x8 board as Queen: 8.9531, the Chancellor: 8.3750 and the Archbishop: 6.5781.
I certainly did take liberties in rounding the figures off in my presentation which can be found here: http://spartanchessonline.com/values.html which I imagine from your comments you may have already looked at.
As for duple-check (I could not use double check since this is a term already understood in orthodox to mean something else) the balance and 'fun' of the game was improved in version 1.06 when duple-check was introduced. Once the minor pieces are traded off the Spartans can plod across the board shepherding the forces with their 2 Kings. Once duple-check was introduced there were some very dynamic games. The Spartans in the center of the board with the White Queen and rooks circling them from both flanks and the rear ranks duple-checking the Spartans frequently and eventually being able to work out a White win.
As for the value of 'simple' check immunity for the Spartan, that is a puzzler. It's worth something, maybe a lot. I do know that the first time a Spartan King played the move Kc4-b3+ (since it was then next to the White King) we did a lot of laughing.
Yes indeed, the position you present with Spartan Kings at g1, h1 is a draw via stalemate. With Black to move only 1 King is under attack and both possible Spartan moves: Kg1-f1 and g2-f1 are illegal since both result in duple-check. --------------------------------- Just a note: At some point the King at h1 came under attack by the Knight at f2. If this happen when white move the Knight from d1 we record the move as Nd1-f2 !+ . The !+ meaning the attacked King is not in check. We record it this was just for purposes of clarity. As for your comments concerning Scharnagle’s analysis, my experience-based guts certainly tell me you are correct. As for people we cannot mention, that sounds like something good to know. Still I ponder the relative value of Spartan pieces in general and the Colonel and Lieutenant specifically. Both leap like a Knight and hit the same number of squares so it seems they all should be roughly equal. But on the other hand they don’t have as many safe checks as a Knight (important in many evaluation theories). But as you point out experience is the best guide in so complicated a subject and these two Spartan, in play seem about equal to a Knight.
Great! And thanks! I have a place to go this evening. Tomorrow I will give it a try. Check notation… Whoops… You do have a good point about the check notation. It seems that our notation evolved this way through play testing various versions. I will think about it and if I cannot come up with some really really good reason why I should keep this more complicated notation, then I will simplify the check notation as you have suggested. Thanks for your observation.
What a fine job you have done Mr. Muller and thanks again. I could not wait so downloaded your zip file and ran part of a game. The positions of the Lieutenants (elephant model) and the Colonels (rook-like model) need to be swapped. All else looks fine. I look forward to digging into this tomorrow. btw - I was looking at fairy-chess piece notation at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_chess_piece. I was preparing to look at Fairy-Max and wanted to have some set of notation in mind before I began. I suspect your notation is different. For the 3 Spartan Chess pieces not already documented on this page I came of with this which I think is correct but perhaps not relevant at this point: • Colonel: 1+, ~2+ • Lieutenant: 1X, ~2X • Hoplite: o1X>, c1>, io~2X>
Easy, just swapped changed the starting locations in the Spartan.ini and I am in good shape. So easy even I could do it!
FAVORS SPARTANS
I am glad that we are playing so many games of Spartan Chess via computer. Just as you said, there is a learning curve to playing this game and it’s hard for a few human play testers here to play enough games to determine if this variant is balanced. It looks, in fact, like some of our recent changes might have made if unbalanced in favor of the Spartans.
Yes, in computer play it does certainly seem that Black, the Spartans, have the edge.
ADDRESSING PLAY BALANCE
There is one thing I can do to try to address this imbalance without changing the pieces and that’s to alter the Spartan setup. The current set up is among the most powerful possible with the Colonels in the center and Lieutenants on the far flank.
I am currently trying this setup for the Spartans which is, I believe, is not as strong:
c l k g w k l c
If this does not balance the game there are a few other candidate set ups and a few small changes I can make to the Spartan pieces which have all been tried before in play test:
a) Remove the horizontal move from the Lieutenant
b) Remove hoplite first move jump making them just like berolina pawns in all respects.
c) Reintroduce concept of pinning hoplites, that is where an enemy pawn or pieces in directly in front of a hoplite the hoplite my still capture but my not move (deals with hoplite zigzagging through Persian pawn formations. Hoplites can still dash for the side of the board away from a Persian King.
QUESTION When I run match play for 20 games for example, I cannot quite determine the number of wins for Black. I am using the record in the Winboard Application title bar which might be 7-4-2 after 13 games and 4-7-3 after 14 games with the 14th game being a draw. What is in the title bar of the Winboard Application is the player record, not the black/white record. So it flip-flops after each game. How do I determine the record for Black? I am not so familiar with this application yet.
Note: I am been just recording the games one at a time while doing other things and writing down the result.
Changes
I have added those 2 lines to the spartan.ini file as I am running 20 games! Yay! I am using this configuration of Spartan pieces:
l g c k k c w l
We will see how that goes.
STUDY
I have been looking over fmax.ini. Iam looking at this partion that appears to be about Spartan chess:
// Spartan Chess, where black has a different army from white's orthodox FIDE, with two kings
Game: fairy
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
11 9 3 10 10 3 8 11
p:74 -16,64 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
h:74 15,E4 17,E4 16,5 15,6 17,6
k:-400 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:259 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:296 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:444 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3
Q:851 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
w:790 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
G:814 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
l:270 15,7 17,7 -15,7 -17,7 30,7 34,7 -30,7 -34,7 1,6 -1,6
c:250 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 -2,7 32,7 -32,7
I am guessing that the first number after the colon for each piece is the weight of the pices and the pairs of numbers that follow movement vectors. If that is correct then I could make some changes to the Spartan pieces to see how that impacted balance. Problem for me is I don’t know for sure if that is what this is and if these are movement characteristics I am not sure how to change them.
QUESTIONS
So, two questions
1. Do the number pairs, such at 1,7 in the last line for the colonel, define the piece movement?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, is there some documentation on this? I don’t see a help file for Winboard. If I were to find and download a fresh copy of winboard would there be a help file explaining the layout of this file?
I have added those 2 lines to the spartan.ini file as I am running 20 games! Yay! I am using this configuration of Spartan pieces:
l g c k k c w l
We will see how that goes.
STUDY
I have been looking over fmax.ini. Iam looking at this partion that appears to be about Spartan chess:
// Spartan Chess, where black has a different army from white's orthodox FIDE, with two kings
Game: fairy
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
11 9 3 10 10 3 8 11
p:74 -16,64 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
h:74 15,E4 17,E4 16,5 15,6 17,6
k:-400 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:259 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:296 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:444 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3
Q:851 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
w:790 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
G:814 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
l:270 15,7 17,7 -15,7 -17,7 30,7 34,7 -30,7 -34,7 1,6 -1,6
c:250 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 -2,7 32,7 -32,7
I am guessing that the first number after the colon for each piece is the weight of the pices and the pairs of numbers that follow movement vectors. If that is correct then I could make some changes to the Spartan pieces to see how that impacted balance. Problem for me is I don’t know for sure if that is what this is and if these are movement characteristics I am not sure how to change them.
QUESTIONS
So, two questions
1. Do the number pairs, such at 1,7 in the last line for the colonel, define the piece movement?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, is there some documentation on this? I don’t see a help file for Winboard. If I were to find and download a fresh copy of winboard would there be a help file explaining the layout of this file?
A friend of mine gave me some insight into the movement vectors. For movement the first number is a direction and the second number a movement type. For the Colonel therefore: 1,7: 1 = 1 square forward and 7=jump movement type 2,7: 2 = 2 squares forward and 7=jump movement type I will see if I can figure the rest of it out in the morning.
Here is what I think I have deduced so far… For second part of vector: 3 = Any distance slide to move or capture 5 = capture only 6 = move only 7 = Jump to move or capture 64 = first move only, movement no capture E4 = first move only, jump, no capture Now I just have to figure the first part, the destination square.
We have messages passing each other :)
Shuffling Pieces
Yes, that is the way it is working out. Changing the back rank changes the balance only very slightly if at all and certainly not enough.
Hoplite pin
We play tested pinning hoplites and removed it for pretty much the reasons you stated, unnatural. This is now a dead consideration.
Weakening General and/or Warlord
I have shuffled the starting position back to one more favored early ones:
c l k g w k l c
Based on your suggestion to reduce the power of the General and/or Warlord I have reduced the power of both of them and running games with them having these characteristics:
General = Rook + Afil
Warlord = Bishop + Dababa
If this is still too strong then the jump can be blocked for the Afil and Dababa portion of the move. Or if this is too weak then only one might be changed rather than both. Alternatively one or both might better as the crowned versions you are testing.
From among the Royal versions of the pieces you suggested, which gave rise to my thinking about these, perhaps we will find a variation that is sufficiently balanced. Play testing for balance will be the judge.
Hoplite Promotion
I understand and have experience your point. I am tempted to say lets go ahead and try your suggestion, promote to a Colonel or King.
Shuffling Pieces
Yes, that is the way it is working out. Changing the back rank changes the balance only very slightly if at all and certainly not enough.
Hoplite pin
We play tested pinning hoplites and removed it for pretty much the reasons you stated, unnatural. This is now a dead consideration.
Weakening General and/or Warlord
I have shuffled the starting position back to one more favored early ones:
c l k g w k l c
Based on your suggestion to reduce the power of the General and/or Warlord I have reduced the power of both of them and running games with them having these characteristics:
General = Rook + Afil
Warlord = Bishop + Dababa
If this is still too strong then the jump can be blocked for the Afil and Dababa portion of the move. Or if this is too weak then only one might be changed rather than both. Alternatively one or both might better as the crowned versions you are testing.
From among the Royal versions of the pieces you suggested, which gave rise to my thinking about these, perhaps we will find a variation that is sufficiently balanced. Play testing for balance will be the judge.
Hoplite Promotion
I understand and have experience your point. I am tempted to say lets go ahead and try your suggestion, promote to a Colonel or King.
54% winning advantage for white sounds great. If I understand correctly General = R+N Warlord = B+K I will download your new version and find out. Also, it seems you have a faster computer than I do :)
Setup With the set up of the back rank not mattering so much I am standardizing on using the setup in the rules: l g k c c k w l Download Fiery-Max I just downloaded Fiery-Max and it has the Warlord as uncrowned B+N and the General the same way, that is R+N. I will change the General to a crowned general by changing fmax.ini and start running games. Weakening General and Warlord My weakening both the the General to a (R + Afil) and the Warlord to a (B + Dababa) is certainly too much a shift in favor of the Persian. Knife Edge It does not take much to change the balance a lot, just has to be the change.
Relative Strength I meant to pose this question in my last post but it slipped my mind. What do you have to say about the relative strength of these two sets of pieces? 1. Crowned Rook: R + K vs. R + Afil (jumps 2 squares diagonally) 2. Crowned Bishop: B + K vs. B + Dababa (just 2 squares orthogonally) At first blush I though the jumping piece in each pair would be stronger but now I am not so sure.
I ran 100 games overnight with: G = R + K W = B + N Result was (W/B/d): 39/40/21
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