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The second round is almost finished. Only one game remains, and either player could call a draw by invoking the 3-times repetition rule, since the same positions have repeated at least 3 times and are continuing to repeat. So expect the third round to start soon.
Unfortunately, you can call a draw at PMC only after 50 moves without capture or promotion, so maybe one or both players are simply taking time to think. Still, a general rule that third repetition is a draw unless the game rules specify it to be a loss or a win might be welcome for GCT #2. Anyway, I'm all for starting Round 3.
This is a misinterpretation of Rule 8 of PMC. Triple repetition is a draw, just as in FIDE Chess--per rule Zero, all FIDE rules apply except as contardicetd by the given rules. PMC has a differnt 50-move rule because the essence of the 50 move rule is irretractable change--and a pawn move in not unretractable in PMC. Triple repetition is the same as in FIDE, therefor it isn't stated explictily in the PMC rules. The game in question is indeed a draw if the player to move chooses to claim it.
Antoine, the rules for PMC begin by saying 'All FIDE Chess rules apply except as follows:'. None of the rules of PMC state any exception to the 3-times repetition rule of Chess. Only one rule of PMC states any exception to any drawing condition of FIDE Chess. It says, 'The game is drawn if fifty consecutive moves have elapsed without a capture or a promotion.' This is just a modification to the 50-moves rule of FIDE Chess to account for promotions. It does not state that these are the only drawing conditions for the game. The 'if' in the rule is just an 'if', not an 'only if'. This rule can be accurately reworded as 'If fifty consecutive moves have elapsed without a capture or a promotion, then the game is drawn.' Therefore, the 3-times repetition rule of FIDE Chess is one of the rules of PMC, and either of you has the right to declare your game a draw.
I think Fergus and Michael are right, and the discussion on PMC rules is also important in the context of the First Game Courier Tournament, obviously. If the current game object of the discussion is an Antoine´s victory, the method used for ties can permiss Antoine be the winner inclusive if he loses one game in the last round and wins in the rest. With a draw, the first place championship is still disputed, and theoretically Fergus, Antoine, Gary and me have still chances, although in my opinion, the Alice game of the next round is going to be the decisive for the first place, I have to play two of three games in the next round that are not comfortable for me (I´m a bad player in both, I think), and I can lose both, and in Maxima, the third, well, I´m experienced, but Gary is a very good player, so all can happen, and I can not bet one penny for me for the first place in the Tournament. This is perhaps one of the reasons of Fergus insistance on the rules, isn´t it?.
In the last two rounds, the privilege of moving first was given evenly, so that you would have it as many times as you didn't have it. Since there are a total of 11 games to play for those of us who played Michael Howe, we can't all play equally as many games as the first player as the second. So, in the last round, here is how who moves first will be decided: 1) The player with the lower total score so far will move first. 2) When players have equal scores, whoever has moved first in fewer games will move first. For these purposes, any game automatically won against Michael Howe without actually playing against him will count as a game in which you moved first. 3) If there is still a tie, the other tiebreaking methods will be used in the same order they would be for deciding the winner. Whoever loses the tiebreak would go first. [No ties were left unresolved by the prior rule.] 4) Exceptions will be made to make sure that no one moves first in fewer than five games and in more than seven. An average of five to six would have been enforced, but counting any unplayed game against Michael Howe as a game in which you moved first raises the total number of games in which each remaining person in the contest moved first. With these conditions in mind, here is who will play whom in each game, with the first player listed first: Alice Chess Fergus Duniho vs. Antoine Fourriere Tony Quintanilla vs. Michael Madsen Mark Thompson vs. Thomas McElmurry Anti-King Chess II Carlos Carlos vs. Fergus Duniho Roberto Lavieri vs. Antoine Fourriere Mark Thompson vs. Ben Good Michael Madsen vs. Mike Nelson [exception] Cavalier Chess Carlos Carlos vs. Roberto Lavieri Ben Good vs. Fergus Duniho Mike Nelson vs. Gary Gifford Tony Quintanilla vs. Mark Thompson [exception] Maxima Gary Gifford vs. Roberto Lavieri Ben Good vs. Thomas McElmurry Takeover Chess Thomas McElmurry vs. Carlos Carlos [exception] Michael Madsen vs. Gary Gifford Mike Nelson vs. Tony Quintanilla I think this was the fairest way to decide who goes first in each game, but if Antoine thinks it will be fairer for him to move first in our game of Alice Chess, given that he would be moving first in fewer actual games than anyone else, I'm willing to allow it. This is not because I doubt the fairness of this method, but only because it might appear unfair, and if I defeat Antoine and win the tournament, I don't want anyone to think I did it by manipulating the tournament.
I think the real issue is to alert the players to the fact that a drawn game has in fact been achieved so the game can be concluded and the final round started. It is evident that both players were suffering from the same misperception of the PMC draw rules. Carlos had earlier posted an inquiry to the PM page about a perpetual check draw. I answered him that the rule was the same as in FIDE--perpetual check is not a draw per se, but always leads to triple repetion or the fifty-move rule (virtaully always the former). It is self evident that Carlos intended to achieve a draw--Antoine has a won game absent the perpetual check--therefor he must have been unaware that he has done so.
Mike Nelson has it right. I don't understand what reason Roberto suggested I had in mind for alerting Antoine and Carlos about their 3-times repetition and the applicable rule.
Fergus, I have said that it was, perhaps, an additional reason for alerting a drawn condition in the PMC game, but I´m not cathegorical on this, it was only a bad thought expressed with some class of humour, if you can consider it as some class of humour. Going to the facts, the current game is a draw according to the rules, but if it does not apply for any reason, Antoine´s position is clearly better. With a draw in this game, it is possible, at least in my opinion, that the first place in the Tournament can be decided in the Alice game of the next round, but this is not a certain fact, there are more games to play, and all can still happen. In every case, good luck to everybody, this Tournament is great regardless the results, and I only expect to see very interesting and enjoyable games in the last round. Nice!
Oops! I was indeed unaware of that rule. But I'm going to claim a draw myself at next move if Carlos repeats the position, since my only voluntary retreat from perpetual check would be a loss. (Or would that be unethical from me now? Please, don't comment on the position itself.) I do not mind playing as Black in my two remaining games, especially considering the fact that Michael Howe's withdrawal has spared me the obligation to play a game I do not like (Cavalier Chess - sorry, Fergus) against a good player.
Yes, considering that Michael Howe was the first-place winner of the previous multivariant tournament, I gather that he was a formidable opponent and that not playing against him was an appreciable advantage for many people. It was to counteract some of the effects of this advantage that I decided to count any automatically won unplayed game against him as one in which you moved first.
<P>Roberto writes:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Fergus, I have said that it was, perhaps, an additional reason for alerting a drawn condition in the PMC game, but I´m not cathegorical on this, it was only a bad thought expressed with some class of humour, if you can consider it as some class of humour.
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Roberto, when I said I didn't understand the motivation you suggested I had, I meant that I didn't understand what you were saying, not that I didn't understand why you said it. I just don't know what motivation you were suggesting I had, because I didn't understand what you wrote.</P>
uhm.
<p>perhaps it looked odd or inept to other people that i have repeated moves.
<p>can people please hold themselves back from offering opinions on the state
of the game? it's not that big a deal, but i wish i hadn't read a couple of the comments here.
<p>i haven't actually wanted to end the game for sure myself yet. i am aware
that i can make it a draw if i choose so (and have been able to for the
last 6 or however many moves). i have been very pressed for time lately,
and because this is my only game left in this round and is obviously an
important one in the overall tournament standings (although not for me) i
want to get as much as i can out of this game (not in terms of length!
but in terms of win/draw/loss). i have defaulted one game on time
already, and have been repeating moves to keep myself alive on time while
at the same time trying to analyse the position.
<p>also: start the third round anytime. don't hold play up for me.
I´ll get Carlos Carlos suggestion and I´m not going to add more. The PMC game has not finished yet, oficially. Please, accept my excuses, for my part, about some of my out of place comments, if it is the case, I feel bad with it. Fergus, forget it. My humour is sometimes acid, and additionally I spoke in a language 'close to English', not in Italian or Spanish, so you could not understand what I said completely, but I tried a joke. There was not an additional motivation in your comments on the rules, very probably, I only think the result is of interest for you and some players in the Tournament.
I think all the players have enjoyed this First Game Courier Tournament a lot. The last game to be played in it is ongoing now (Maxima, Gifford-Lavieri), a game of high quality to the present (it is my subjective appretiation), and in move 30 both teams may have more or less equal chances in a very complex end. See and feel!. We can START THINKING on ideas for the next Tournament. What about ORIENTAL VARIANTS Tournament?. Can it attract a lot of players?. I think it is very possible!. Other ideas?. Little boards Tournament?. Unusual shapes?. Democratic selection as in the First Tournament?... By the way, Antoine Fourriere is going to be in a clear first place in the First Game Courier Tournament (as I expected, I know how strong he is!). Congratulations!. And Congratulations to all the other players by the moments we have lived in this Tournament, I expect all of them, as me, have enjoyed it a lot!. Music to the soul!.
Disagreeing with implied point of RLavieri, I am glad I decided at last minute not to participate in first tournament because of ridiculous way time controls worked out. I think a game should somehow be completed in couple weeks or month at most. Relatedly some non-tournament recreational GC games become unpleasant when an opponent makes several moves a day, then disappears for weeks. In other venues for Chess, games finish the same day. I have no idea who is 1st/2nd in your Tourn.#1, but not to be impressive when pace is slower than slow Correspondence Chess. No doubt there are other rewards for having participated, but such is perspective on Time Controls.
George, your reasons are partially right, but you must consider that if time controls are very strict, we can´t expect a massive participation, to the contrary, I bet the number of players must be reduced. Perhaps a good tool must be implement sessions of moves, say at least 5 timed moves in one session, and there must be at least two sessions in a week. Details must be refined. Other suggestions?.
Other idea may be a RAPID Tournament: In each week, players accord the day and hour they decided to play the assigned game. In this session each player has up to 1 hour to make a number of moves, say 10, 15 or 20. If the game has not finished, it must be continued with the same time rules in other session, at most a week after.
That last suggestion, Roberto, sounds right without its being 'Rapid Tournament'. Just controls in hours on specified day(or two), one game at a time. Not so limited time as orthodox chess today since CVs have not established openings, but like Chess tournaments 30 and 100 yrs. ago where a single game may take even two days. Then also there is more interest to view one in progress.
Roberto's suggestion seems too complex to implement, and it seems too difficult to enforce. Since it would require the cooperation of both players, it could not be enforced simply by exacting time penalties for noncompliance. It would be more practical to just enforce stricter time controls that would be too hard to meet without coordinated sessions. But even putting aside the logistical questions of how coordinated sessions could be enforced, enforcing them just doesn't work out well when two players have very different schedules. Roberto and I have been able to rapidly play games in sessions of moves, because, despite living thousands of miles apart, it is mainly north-south distance, and we live in the same time zone. But it would be more difficult for someone in California and someone in eastern Europe to find the time for coordinated sessions with each other. If we had a tournament with time controls such as this, we would probably have to limit it to people within a certain range of time zones. As for the time contols used for the tournament, they were chosen to be flexible enough for people in different parts of the world with very different schedules who may occassionally have emergencies when they would have to stop playing for a while. Even given this, some people dropped out because they didn't have enough time to play. Nevertheless, given the experience I have now had with these time controls, I would now consider tweaking them. I might make the spare time two weeks instead of one and reduce by half the amount of extra time and bonus time given after each move. This would prevent reserve time from amassing as much, as well as give players some more time for emergencies at the beginning of rounds.
Thanks again for the congratulations, Roberto, but there is little doubt that having one hour for each move reflected in the outcome, especially when I ended up sacrificing my Rook in our game of Anti-King Chess. Most participants (and non-participants) had several other things to do, such as work, family, studying or maintaining this site. In my view, the only fair equalizing methods are 1) to give all players enough time to think between each move, that is, allowing them a pace of only one move per week at times in a given game. For next year, I would suggest a January to June round-robin of six or eight games, and a seven-player September to November final of six games because these seven players might have enough time. (I would also allow two players to replace their assigned game with any game that has been played in any yearly tournament such as this one or last year's tournament.) And I think you need a more lenient pace at the beginning of the games, not merely to avoid blunders, but also to assess the possible strategies, and because after twenty moves, half the games are already more or less decided and you can drop them anyway if you're losing. 2) to play each game in four hours, or by slices of ten moves by hour with one player playing a secret move at the end of the slice, like in FIDE-Chess. Of course you need to have both players connected at the same time (probably feasible on Saturdays and Sundays), but there is also the problem of your Internet connection. It is one thing to lose an independent game because of a technical problem, but I wouldn't like to lose a Tournament that way. (Now, the penalty for not playing within the clock in the middle of a ten-move slice in a given game could be the piece of your choice (unless your opponent doesn't want it) the first time, that same piece to drop for your opponent the second time and loss of the match the third time. But it sounds overly complicated.) Nevertheless, the implementation of that kind of device might be useful.
Bug report: When I click on 'View Entire' on Antoine's comment on this page immediately before this one, I get a 404 Page Not Found error, so I can only see part of his comments. Game Courier Tournament #2: Yes! I'm eager to get in on the next GC tournament... I have enough free time that I can I could deal with more ambitious time controls, but I understand that most people don't, and I think the priority should be on maximizing participation. As for game selection, I favor a democratic approach. From what I see from the logs, game selection was conducted in a very impressive way last time, and I would like to see that process repeated. The only change I can think of that should be considered is a rule to preclude inclusion of the same game in consecutive tournaments. My suggestion: exclude games from this tournament that were played in the last one except those that are Recognized Variants. This way, GC tournament #2 can still include Shogi, Xiang Qi, Ultima, Alice Chess, Grand Chess, and Glinski's Hex Chess, but other games won't be available again until GC tournament #3. Otherwise, I'm afraid we won't get enough variation...
With 2000 games within CVP I think a tournament could evolve from a list of wholly new games, no duplications necessary at all. I don't see Modern FIDE Ch. on anyone's list, so why Shogi, Xiangqi, Alice again? This is supposed CV Page not orthodox. I like Antoine's extension of RL's blocks for moves, even if spacings stretch out to month, six, seven weeks for one game.
Well, I'm certainly happy to have an entirely new list of games, and RL blocks.
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