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Recognized Chess Variants. Index page listing the variants we feel are most significant. (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Derek Nalls wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 12:10 AM UTC:
Your lucid explanation of responsible intents and purposes has allayed
most
of my concerns.  Thank you.

Well, I certainly agree that a select-few, new chess variants should be
able to earn inclusion upon the list of recognized chess variants.  I
should have more accurately explained that my root concern is for the
total number and their quality to be strictly protected.  I recommend
that
the select list at the CV Pages should 'fill-up' at appr. 20-40 games
maximum (in my opinion).  Thereafter, any new, worthy inclusions would
carry the prerequisite that, upon careful consideration, one of the old
games on the select list (notably, no longer quite as good comparatively)
must be dropped.  In this manner, the select list could gradually,
conscientiously evolve in a positive manner in response to modern
improvements within our gameworld.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 01:47 AM UTC:
Although I disagree with his solution, I share some of the same concern
that Derek Nalls has over the recommended variants list. In its present
form, continued expansion of the list would eventually dilute its value.
Instead of proposing to cap the list, I propose to break it down into four
tiers of recognition. These would be Classic, Vintage, Popular, and
Acclaimed. Classic would be the most exclusive tier, reserved for games
that are old, time-tested, and massively popular. In our lifetime at
least, it would be limited to Chess, Xiang Qi, and Shogi. Vintage would be
reserved for games that have remained popular well past the deaths of
their creators. Some examples of Vintage recognized variants would be
Alice Chess and Glinski's Hexagonal Chess. Popular would be for
relatively recent games that have attained a high degree of popularity.
Signs of this would include being sold as a commercial variant, being
played in tournaments held by CV organizations, such as AISE or NOST, or
being played by many people on PBM sites, such as Brainking. Some examples
of Popular recognized variants would be Gothic Chess, Ultima, and Smess.
Finally, Acclaimed would be used for relatively recent games that have not
attained such a high degree of popularity but which have at least won some
critical acclaim and general approval among members of this site. Some
examples of Acclaimed recognized variants would be Crazy 38's and
Wildebeest Chess.

By dividing the recognized variants into graduated tiers, we would
preserve the distinction of being a recognized variant while allowing
uncapped growth of the list. The more exclusive tiers would be harder for
games to reach, and new games wouldn't even qualify for the first two
tiers. Thus, the greatest growth of the list would be in the less
pretigious tiers, and this would preserve the integrity and usefulness of
the list. Beyond this, the four-tier system would make the list more
useful by giving more guidance to people who are new to Chess variants.

After I came up with the names for the four tiers, I noticed a nice bit of
serendipity. The initials of the four tiers, listed in order of prestige,
are CVPA, which can be used as an acronym for Chess Variant Pages Awards.
Thus, with the addition of the four-tier division of the recognized
variants, it might be fitting to rename this endeavor the Chess Variant
Pages Awards.

For now, I will ask for discussion of the merits of this plan and for
opinions on how the current recognized variants should be classified.

Greg Strong wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 02:01 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
<p>Oh yeah, Fergus. I think you are right on the money. I was already thinking about the need to segregate, but I was considering categories more like the catagorizations on the <a href='/Gindex.html'>Main Index</a> page. But I think that your classification, buy degree of <i>prestige</i>, and <i>time-testedness</i>, (to invent a word,) really makes a lot of sense. And the CVPA acronym sure is sweet icing on the case! Good work!!!</p>

Derek Nalls wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 02:23 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Personally, I think the proposed 4-tier division of the recognized chess variants is remarkably well-conceived. Moreover, it is a much more elegant solution than I proposed. Of course, some may argue for a smaller or larger number of tiers via different classification schemes. [Nothing comes to my mind as an improvement, though.]

Jared McComb wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 02:28 AM UTC:
I, too, think Fergus's idea is excellent. I also think that 'time-testedness' is a perfectly good word, and wish I could find more opportunities in which to use it.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 04:55 PM UTC:
<P>I just went through the list of recognized variants and did what I could to divide them into the four tiers I suggested last night. In some cases, I said 'Popular or Acclaimed,' because I wasn't sure how popular the game was. For these games, I would default to Acclaimed unless I received evidence of the game's popularity. Altogether, there are 3 Classic games, 13 Vintage games, 10 Popular games, 7 Popular or Acclaimed games, and 2 Acclaimed games, for a total of 35 games. Without getting sidetracked by other thoughts of mine, which I will save for my next message, here is a list of which tier I think each game belongs to:</P> <P><b>Classic</b>: Chess, Shogi, Xiangqi</P> <P><b>Vintage</b>: Alice Chess, Changgi: Korean Chess, Chaturanga, Chaturanga for four players, Glinski's Hexagonal Chess, Kriegspiel, Losing Chess, Marseillais Chess, Pocket Knight, Progressive Chess, Raumschach, Shatranj, and Tamerlane Chess.</P> <P><b>Popular</b>: Avalanche Chess, Bughouse, Extinction Chess, Fischer Random Chess, Gothic Chess, Grand Chess, Minishogi, Omega Chess, Smess, and Ultima.</P> <P><b>Popular or Acclaimed:</b> Chess with Different Armies, Dragonchess, Los Alamos Chess, Magnetic Chess, McCooey's Hexagonal Chess, Tridimensional Chess (Star Trek), and Wildebeest Chess.</P> <P><b>Acclaimed:</b> Crazy 38's, and Flip Chess and Flip Shogi.</P> <P>Any comments, especially with respect to resolving whether a game should be classified as Popular or Acclaimed, are welcome.</P>

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 05:11 PM UTC:
In going through the list of recognized variants, I noticed that some games
made the list for reasons of historical interest rather than because they
were popular or well-regarded. For example, the text for Tridimensional
Chess (Star Trek) says, 'The variant of three dimensional chess as it
appears in Star Trek may not deserve a recognition for its playability.
However, it is probably the most widely known variant three dimensional
variant of chess, due to its exposure in several episodes of the popular
Star Trek science fiction television series.' If the purpose of the
recognized variants list is help newcomers find games they will probably
like, it doesn't seem so useful to include mediocre games that are mainly
of historical interest. Short of editing the list myself, two solutions
come to mind. One is to create a fifth tier, which would be for games that
are mainly of historical interest. This tier might be called Noteworthy.
It might be suitable for Shatranj, Chaturanga, and Tamerlane Chess. The
other solution is to establish a procedure for weeding the list through
group consensus. It might be worthwhile to implement both solutions.

Here is a procedure I propose for weeding the list. When the members of a
tier exceed ten, hold a ranked ballot poll to completely rank the games in
the tier. One purpose for this would be to create a top ten list for the
tier, which would be displayed on this page. The other would be to
identify which game in the tier is held in lowest regard. This would be
the game that ranks at the bottom of the ranking established by the poll.
A second poll would then be held on whether to keep this game in the list.
This would be a simple 'Aye' or 'Nay' poll. If 75% or more of the
voters favored dropping the game from the list, then it would be dropped.
If there were still more than ten games in the tier, then a new poll would
be held for keeping or dropping the new lowest ranked game in the tier.
This process would repeat until the lowest ranked game had enough support
to stay or until there were only ten games left in the tier. Also, if a
game had survived this procedure the last time, or at least survived it
within the last year, and it found itself at the bottom again, it would
receive a temporary reprieve from being weeded out. The procedure would
not be used for weeding the list unless the bottom-most ranked game had
not been through this procedure the last time and had not been through it
within the past year. This is similar to Derek Nall's suggestion of
capping the list, but it allows the list to grow as long as all games in
the list are sufficiently well-regarded.

Again, comments are welcome. These are offered as suggestions, and I am
not yet saying that these are how things will be.

Greg Strong wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 06:21 PM UTC:
<p>IMHO, Star-Trek Tri-D Chess, and Los Alamos chess, are the two obvious ones that don't belong, for the reasons you mention. I agree that it makes sense to create a 'historical interest' category as well, for games like <a href='/historic.dir/chaturanga.html'>Chaturanga</a>, <a href='/historic.dir/chaturang4.html'>Chaturanga for Four Players</a>, <a href='/historic.dir/shatranj.html'>Shatranj</a>, and <a href='/historic.dir/tamerlane.html'>Tamerlane Chess</a>. Whether or not Star-Trek and Los Alamos belong even here would be a question for the community.</p> <p>As to the proposed process of weeding, I would agree that some weeding should occur, but I don't like the threshold of exactly ten for all categories. I think the threshold for weeding should be larger for the lower categories. The bottom category, the Acclaimed games, in particular, should be allowed to grow rather large; I think even 40 or 50 in this category wouldn't be unreasonable. This site has hundreds and hundreds of games. I think many people who like to look through, and read the rules for games just for fun, would appreciate having a listing of those games on the site that have actually been playtested and enjoyed. And I would hate to see that list limited to any small number. For the Popular and Vintage categories, a threshold of 10 might be reasonable.</p> <p>For the top level classification, it seems to me that an exact definition of what's in and what's out is in order, so here's my humble suggestion: <blockquote>A game that is played <i>exactly in its current form</i> by at least one million people, and has been played by at least one million people for at least one hundred years.</blockquote> Of course, this would also include <a href='/oriental.dir/koreanchess.html'>Changgi (Korean Chess)</a>, along with Fergus' great three, but I see no reason for it to be excluded. This definition also sets the exact conditions for games to fall out of the list as well ... If the game is ever played by less than a million players, then it has lost too much popularity, and should be dropped to the next lower bracket (Vintage.) The other possibility is that the game mutates, i.e., the rules of the game change and fewer people are playing with the old rules than with the new rules. In this case, the game should drop to Vintage, and the new version won't qualify for Classic status until the new version is dominant for at least one hundred years.</p> <p>As for those you list as Popular or Acclaimed, may I humbly suggest that <a href='/unequal.dir/cwda.html'>Chess with Different Armies</a> be Popular, and <a href='/3d.dir/dragonchess.html'>Dragonchess</a> be Acclaimed. <a href='/3d.dir/startrek.html'>Star-Trek</a> and <a href='/small.dir/losalamos.html'>Los Alamos</a> should be in the new Historical Interest category, or none at all. I have no opinion on the others you leave open (Magnetic, McCooney's Hex, and Wildebeast.)</p> <p>Thanks again for your great work on these important classifications, Fergus!</p>

Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, Sep 14, 2004 08:46 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I think the fifth category for historically significant variants is a good
idea. Los Alamos Chess definitely belongs here because of its seminal
importance in the history of computer chess. Star Trek 3D does't belong.

The 'excellent' is for Fergus and his fine ideas for improving the
Recognized Variants list.

Jared McComb wrote on Wed, Sep 15, 2004 12:18 AM UTC:
I agree that Changgi should be on the Classic list. Maybe Makruk and/or Sittuyin as well?

Antoine Fourrière wrote on Wed, Sep 15, 2004 12:42 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
I think four categories are enough, and that it is unnecessary to devolve a
category to only Chess, Xiangqi and Shogi. I would suggest:
Classic: a Recognized Variant which is played by thousands of players from
several countries, either through the Internet or face-to-face, and which
has or deserves an International Federation, such as Chess, Xiangqi,
Changqi, Shogi, Glinski, Ultima, Grand Chess, probably Bughouse and
Fischer Random Chess.
Vintage: a Recognized Variant that doesn't feel like it shouldn't have
been Recognized, such as Alice Chess, Extinction Chess, Marseillais Chess,
Omega Chess, Pocket Knight Chess, CWDA and a few others.
Popular: a Variant which is played routinely on this server and is doing
well on polls, but which doesn't qualify yet for a higher rating and
whose exact rules may still be discussed, such as Anti-King Chess,
Switching Chess, Pocket Mutation Chess or Rococo and twenty or thirty
other games when there are dozens of new games on Game Courier each day.
Ancient: To save Chaturanga, Tamerlane Chess, Los Alamos Chess... and the
CVPA acronym.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 15, 2004 02:22 AM UTC:
I don't think the categories should be watered down as Antoine has
suggested. Let me attend to the meanings of the words I chose for the
categories. A classic is something whose popularity has survived a
considerable passage of time. It is part of the definition of classic that
its value has been time-tested. Thus, a classic variant must be old enough
to be time-tested. This would immediately rule out such recent games as
Ultima and Fischer Random Chess, whose inventors are both alive. In
general usage, vintage is roughly a synonym of classic. As with classic,
time-testedness is an essential measure of what has vintage value. I chose
to use both Classic and Vintage, because there is a huge gulf between the
popularity of the top three and the popularity of other CV's of
time-tested, enduring value. The classics are the CV's that are so
massively popular and well-regarded that they serve as the standards by
which we judge other CV's. As for the Vintage games, I consider remaining
popular past the death of the inventor an important benchmark, because
sometimes a game will be popular largely through the activity of the
inventor. When this can be ruled out, and it can be seen that a game
remains popular on its own merits, then it has passed an important test of
time-tested value. The definitions that Antoine proposes for Classic and
Vintage make no reference to the significance that age and time-testedness
have in the meanings of these words.

His proposed definition of Popular is more watered down than what I
intended. I kept it stricter than this, because I would not presume to say
that my own games are popular just because several people are playing them
on Game Courier. Also, Antoine has left out Acclaimed, yet he hasn't
watered down his definition of Popular enough to cover such already
recognized variants as Crazy 38's and Flip Chess and Flip Shogi, which
aren't being played on Game Courier at all. One of the reasons I came up
with the tiers I did was to exhaustively categorize all the games that had
already been recognized. For this purpose, it is important to distinguish
between Popular and Acclaimed.

Ancient is one of the terms I considered for the tier I suggested calling
Noteworthy. What I have against the term Ancient is that it is purely
descriptive rather than normative. The terms I have suggested are all
normative, which means that they refer to the worth or significance of the
game. The term Ancient just refers to the age. I suggested the term
Noteworthy, because it can simply mean that a game is worth taking note of
for some reason. This would typically be for a game's historical
importance, but it would leave open the option of being noteworthy for
some other reason. Noteworthy games whose significance is not strictly
historic might include games from science fiction novels, such as Jetan,
or games that break world records, such as Charles Fort's Super Chess,
which may be the largest CV anyone has ever attempted to play.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Sep 15, 2004 03:54 AM UTC:
<P>Regarding the difference in popularity between Shogi, the least popular of the top three, and Korean Chess, let me quote from David Pritchard's <I>Encyclopedia of Chess Variants</I>. First, regarding Korean Chess, he says, 'It is not widely played, and there is very little literature. The first changgi association was formed in Korea in 1956' (164). Regarding Shogi, he says, 'Shogi flourished during the Tokugawa shogunate, lapsed briefly during the Meiji restoration (1868) but is now Japan's most popular game with estimates of between 10 and 20 million who are familiar with the rules, of whom perhaps a million are players. The Nihon Shogi Remmei (Japan Shogi Federation), formed in 1927, regulates the game' (269).</P> <P>Gregory Stong has offered a more precise definition of the top tier, which he claims will let in Korean Chess. It says:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> A game that is played exactly in its current form by at least one million people, and has been played by at least one million people for at least one hundred years. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Given what Pritchard has written, I doubt that Korean Chess meets this definition. Given that Japan is much more populous than Korea, that Shogi is the most popular game in Japan while Go is the most popular game in Korea, and that Pritchard still estimates that only about one million Japanese play Shogi, it seems highly probable that significantly less than one million Koreans play Korean Chess.</P> <P>As for this particular definition, I think it is too open to borderline cases. In particular, it may make Shogi a borderline case. This is because it is hard to measure exactly how many people are playing Shogi, but it seems close to the one million mark. I favor a definition that refers to the dominance of a CV in nations. To count as Classic, a game should be the dominant CV in some of the world's most populous nations or in many nations whose total population equals or exceeds some of the world's most populous nations. Xiangqi is dominant in the most populous nation, Shogi in the tenth most populous nation, and Chess in all or most of the nations between China and Japan in population. In contrast, Korean Chess is dominant only in two nations, North and South Korea, whose combined population would rank between 15th (Egypt) and 16th place (Iran).</P> <P>Another criterion I think is worth adding is that a Classic CV should stand out as very different from any CV with greater world dominance. Chess, Shogi, and Xiangqi are all very different from each other, but Korean Chess is too derivative of Xiangqi, whose dominance is much greater. Likewise, Makruk and Sittuyin, which are even less dominant than Korean Chess, are too similar to Chess. Therefore, I think the Classics tier should be limited to Chess, Xiangqi, and Shogi.</P>

Derek Nalls wrote on Fri, Sep 17, 2004 10:35 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
How much time should we allow for discussion and consideration of ideas before Fergus Duniho is encouraged to move forward in restructing the list of recognized chess variants based upon our current understanding (and hopefully, consensus) of the game entries and their classification?

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, Sep 17, 2004 11:31 PM UTC:
I expect I will upload a new version of this page soon. The five tiers, as I have them now, are Classic, Vintage, Popular, Acclaimed, and Famous. But can CVPAF be a good acronym for anything? Maybe Chess Variant Pages Awards for Fairy Chess? Can anyone come up with something better?

Doug Chatham wrote on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 04:48 PM UTC:
CVPAF = Chess Variant Pages' Arena of Fame?

Greg Strong wrote on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 04:58 PM UTC:
Nice, Doug! I like the name!

Derek Nalls wrote on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 03:04 PM UTC:
The links to 'Gothic Chess' and 'Shatranj' are dead.
All the rest work fine.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 09:08 PM UTC:
Thanks for checking out the links. The two bad links were both mistakes on my part. I have now fixed them.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 09:21 PM UTC:
I have some more suggestions for other things CVPAF could be an acronym
for:

Chess Variant Pages Apocolypse of Fun

Chess Variant Pages Approbation File

Chess Variant Pages Appreciation Furore

Derek Nalls wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 02:10 PM UTC:
Since the advent of the Zillions program in 1998, dedicating material and financial resources to manufacturing specific or even universal chess variant sets has become as tragically backward (in effect) as it is noble (in effort). For instance, if one wants to help education in their community, donating a lot of typewriters will have extremely little positive effect in this age of networks, internet, computers, laptops, programs, etc. Quantum leaps in technology should reshape our paradigms irreversibly in favor of what is now clearly superior (by numerous criteria of measure).

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 03:43 PM UTC:
I still like the social aspect of sitting at a table with the friend I'm playing, and pushing pieces around. I'm not sure that everything should be done from behind a computer, just because we can ...

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Wed, Sep 22, 2004 08:08 PM UTC:
I eventually use physical boards and pieces to play Chess and Chess variants, and it is nice, apart from the social aspect involved, perhaps additioned with a cup of good Colombian coffee, Spanish Jerez, French Cognac, or a simple fruit cocktail, although it is always confortant enough a good conversation about an interesting topic. My son prefer play Chess on Physical boards, and rarely he uses the computer to play. Latin people has the tendence to be very social, perhaps this is a reason because Chess players (and Chess variants players) in latin lands still prefer play in Clubs or as members of groups, using physical boards when possible, but personally I like too the use of computers and Internet, it has its enjoyable points too, it is incredible how the distances dissapear instantly, and you can meet people everywhere to play, and form part of communities that, without modern aids, it is impossible they can exist. Is some aspects, human beings are going, step by step, and without taking it in account, constructing the skeleton of one only macro-living-being, phylosophically, THE HUMAN.

Nasmichael Farris wrote on Mon, Nov 8, 2004 06:26 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Many thanks, gentlemen, for putting attention back onto the Recognized Variants. Good choices, and interesting perspectives.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Nov 28, 2004 08:35 PM UTC:
Since I put off this month's poll this long, and I now have a throat cold, or sars, or strep throat or something, next month's recognized variant of the month will the second place winner of the last poll, Extinction Chess.

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