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Rose. Can make consecutive knightmoves in a circle.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

Charles Gilman wrote on Mon, Apr 21, 2003 08:31 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Rose is a very good name for a Chess variant piece because of its royal connections. It was an emblem of the House of Tudor, and Henry Tudor jr. (Henry the Eighth) was a king with six queens over his lifetime (like the King of a chess player who gets a lot of their Pawns promoted!). Also roses, like kings and queens, occur in both of Lewis Carroll's Alice books. The introduction to the second book has an array with a rose on e7, and I was reminded of the roses in the first book by my friend Rose King! Incidentally the Rose does not move through exactly 45º, as the move at 45º to a Knight move is a Camel move (think of the triangle b1-a3-c4).

Charles Gilman wrote on Tue, Jan 6, 2004 08:57 AM UTC:

More detail about the use of the Rose as a royal symbol can be found on
http://www.karpov.ru/katalog/_roza_en.php, a page showing a novelty set
based on an English historic event called the Wars of the Roses. A
genealogy at
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/heads/footnotes/monarchtree.html
shows the kings involved and much else.

David Paulowich wrote on Wed, Sep 1, 2004 04:51 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Ralph Betza, in his article on More Halflings, writes: 'A Halfling Rose can move to all the squares a Rose can move to! The only difference is that it cannot go past the halfway mark and return to its starting square, and therefore it does not attack most squares as often. The normal Rose attacks every square it can reach at least twice -- once clockwise and once counterclockwise -- and also attacks half of the squares it can reach four times, where the circles intersect. The Halfling Rose still attacks twice ...' [when the half-circles intersect] <p>Both pieces were intended for use on 12x12 and larger boards. I personally prefer a half-circle moving Rose to one capable of moving in a complete circle and ending its turn on the same square as it started from.

George Duke wrote on Thu, Sep 2, 2004 05:42 PM UTC:

Knappen's Nachtmahr covers all the different Nightriders including Rose. The trouble is that any extension of Knight can look like a Knight's Tour (problem theme) instead of a chess movement. The maximum-four-step Half-Rose making more sense, what is piece value? Comparable to Nightrider itself between 8x8 and 12x12, 4.5 points.

David Paulowich wrote on Thu, Sep 2, 2004 08:21 PM UTC:

The paths d1-b2-a4-b6-d7 and d1-f2-g4-f6-d7 indicate that a Half-Rose on d1 can, so to speak, 'double-check' a King on d7. I will follow Duke in defining the Half-Rose to be a circular nightrider making from one to four leaps. On a 12x12 board this piece seems to be worth as much as a Rook, perhaps a little more than a Nightrider. [EDIT 2007] Rose Chess XII has these three pieces, with the Half-Rose definitely looking stronger than the other two.

Seven years ago I looked at the combination of Knight and (3,3) leaper, decided that it was too strange, and went on to invent the Quarter-Rose. Replacing the Queens in the standard game with this two-step leaper can lead to: 1. d1-c3 c7-c5, 2. c3-b5 mate! Black's foolish move left both c7 and d6 empty, which means that the mate cannot be blocked. Clearly this can be a dangerous piece on an 8x8 board. Looks like King, Knight, and Quarter-Rose can force mate against a lone King.

George Duke wrote on Fri, Sep 3, 2004 06:14 PM UTC:

In 'More Halflings' Betza says 'A halfling is worth half as much as a normal piece' and 'Halflings are worth half.' Incorrect; estimates way off in case of Rose and Half-Rose, both agreed to be close to Rook value. Interesting piece Half-Rose can also perform double check across the four-step routes, but taking seven rows, rather unlikely where eight ranks. Maintained for twelve years as first of the four atomic chess pieces, Falcon triple checks when unimpeded; an intervening piece may still leave two Falcon pathways to King's position. Few pieces have multiple pathways like Rose and Falcon; one is Carlos Cetina's Sissa. Obviously, Sissa and Half-Rose make double paths only certain of their squares.

David Paulowich wrote on Sun, Sep 5, 2004 01:37 AM UTC:

Ralph Betza started off his first article with '... a Halfling Knight is exactly the same as a normal Knight.' So any statement about halfling piece values he made presumably refers only to halfling pieces which move to about half as many squares as the original piece. <p>You almost need a lawyer to deal with the subject of halfling pieces. Just look at Eric Greenwood's Cavalier, a piece designed to have multiple paths to each square it attacks. I guess that the Halfling Cavalier can always make its nonleaping Knight moves. And these would be the only moves allowed from a central square on an 8x8 board.

John Ayer wrote on Sun, Mar 6, 2011 02:47 PM UTC:

1: A half-rose is the same as a rose on an endless and empty board.

2: I agree that a rose, like a reflecting bishop, should not be permitted to return to its square of origin.

3: Considering how many pieces comprise a nightrider, I am puzzled that no one seems to have fused the rose with anything else. The bishop, the rook, the queen, the alfil-rider, the dabbabah-rider, the dayrider, the nightrider, the Mann, the alibaba, the dragon king, and the dragon horse all occur as obvious possibilities.

Cameron Miles wrote on Fri, Dec 20, 2013 01:10 AM UTC:Average ★★★

The helpmate puzzle is interesting. I came up with the following:
0...Kd4 1.c4 Ke4 2.c5 Kf5 3.c6 Kg4 4.c7 Kh5 5.c8=Rose#
Can someone please confirm this? I haven't been able to find the solution anywhere online.

The one major problem with the rose is that it seems better suited for puzzles/compositions than for actual use in a chess variant. In the context of a practical game, it is just a little too cumbersome to examine all the different moving/maneuvering possibilities for one's own rose, and/or keep track of all squares controlled by the opponent's rose. 

The best variant pieces (in my opinion) add novelty and complexity to the game without it being impossible to intuitively visualize their way of movement.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Fri, Dec 20, 2013 02:26 AM UTC:

Cameron, think back to when you first learned to play chess. Did you think the knight's move was intuitive right away, or did you have trouble visualizing it at first?

And how about the bishop's move? If you say that one is intuitive, just imagine trying to visualize the bishop's move if the board wasn't checkered. I know it would be tough for me. But I'd get used to it after a while.

I wouldn't mind playing a chess variant involving the Rose. (I'd like to try Golden Age Chess on a Really Big Board one of these days.) I agree, the Rose's move would be tough to visualize at first. I'd get used to it.

Jeremy Good wrote on Sun, May 24, 2015 04:01 PM UTC:

My Oxford Companion to Chess, by Whyld and Hopper, informs me that the Rose was invented by the French composer Robert Meignant (1924-) in 1968 and used in FAIRY PROBLEMS; it is moved like a nightrider but on an octagonal path....

Nick Wolff wrote on Sat, Jun 3, 2017 03:40 AM UTC:

For anyone interested (because it took me quite a while to figure out and then code), below is GAME Code for a rule enforcing Rose piece that is designated RO (white) and ro (black). These can probably be condensed to an easier to read code, but it should function perfectly.

//define each move a knight can make as a direction
map ro1 1 2;
map ro2 -1 2;
map ro3 1 -2;
map ro4 -1 -2;
map ro5 2 1;
map ro6 -2 1;
map ro7 2 -1;
map ro8 -2 -1;

//Create a function for each of the 16 moves a Rose can make
def ROA1 logride #0 #1 (ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6);
def ROA2 logride #0 #1 (ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7);
def ROB1 logride #0 #1 (ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2);
def ROB2 logride #0 #1 (ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3);
def ROC1 logride #0 #1 (ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1);
def ROC2 logride #0 #1 (ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4);
def ROD1 logride #0 #1 (ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5);
def ROD2 logride #0 #1 (ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8);
def ROE1 logride #0 #1 (ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7);
def ROE2 logride #0 #1 (ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6);
def ROF1 logride #0 #1 (ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3);
def ROF2 logride #0 #1 (ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2);
def ROG1 logride #0 #1 (ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4);
def ROG2 logride #0 #1 (ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1);
def ROH1 logride #0 #1 (ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8);
def ROH2 logride #0 #1 (ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5);

//Assign Rose moves to the Rose functions
def RO fn ROA1 #0 #1 or fn ROA2 #0 #1 or fn ROB1 #0 #1 or fn ROB2 #0 #1 or fn ROC1 #0 #1 or fn ROC2 #0 #1 or fn ROD1 #0 #1 or fn ROD2 #0 #1 or fn ROE1 #0 #1 or fn ROE2 #0 #1 or fn ROF1 #0 #1 or fn ROF2 #0 #1 or fn ROG1 #0 #1 or fn ROG2 #0 #1 or fn ROH1 #0 #1 or fn ROH2 #0 #1;
def ROL lograys #0 (ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 stop) (ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 stop) (ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 stop) (ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 stop) (ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 stop) (ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 stop) (ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 stop) (ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 stop) (ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 stop) (ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 stop) (ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 stop) (ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 stop) (ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 stop) (ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 stop) (ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 stop) (ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 stop);
def ro fn RO #0 #1;
def roL lograys #0 (ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 stop) (ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 stop) (ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 stop) (ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 stop) (ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 stop) (ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 stop) (ro3 ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 stop) (ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 ro8 stop) (ro4 ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 stop) (ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 ro6 stop) (ro8 ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 stop) (ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 ro2 stop) (ro6 ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 stop) (ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 ro1 stop) (ro2 ro1 ro5 ro7 ro3 ro4 ro8 stop) (ro2 ro6 ro8 ro4 ro3 ro7 ro5 stop);

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sat, Jun 3, 2017 12:58 PM UTC:

That looks along the lines of what I was thinking of. Since there isn't much correlation between your numbers and the order that a Rose moves in each direction, I would suggest replacing your ro# labels with more meaningful directional labels, such as the ones commonly used for Knights in Zillions-of-Games, which I also used in this tutorial I just remembered to add to the index.

Programming Piece Movement in Game Courier - A Tutorial

Walker wrote on Fri, Feb 5, 2021 03:28 PM UTC in reply to Cameron Miles from Fri Dec 20 2013 01:10 AM:

I noticed that It is what it is chess mentioned a piece called a mini-rose. I assume that a mini-rose is a circular king, that is, it moves like a king any number of times with one restriction: It has to turn 45 degrees each move.

david_64 wrote on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 04:16 AM UTC:

H. G. Muller included a full set of move diagrams in his May, 2021 Comment to Rose Chess XII. This 12x12 variant uses the "Half Rose" - limited to no more than four Knight moves. This restriction reduces the number of multiple paths, but still allows the piece to target a full thirty squares. On larger boards the Rose can target up to 32 squares. This game also has Nightriders. - David Paulowich

Greg Strong wrote on Tue, Jan 24, 2023 02:01 PM UTC in reply to david_64 from 04:16 AM:

Hey, David. Good to see you're still lurking on occasion! Shoot me an email some time.

Best,
Greg

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