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H.G.Muller wrote on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 09:15 PM UTC:

FYI: Smirf falls way behind Joker80 in any real-life tournament played so far. See, for instance, the Battle of the Goths Championship 2008, which is currently playing at http://80.100.28.169/gothic/battle.html . And the main reason it does so is because it loses many points against engines in the lower part of the ranking. If you would look at the games (they can be downloaded from the mentioned page) you see the same pattern over and over again: Smirf voluntarily engages in losing trades, thinking it is +4 or +5 ahead, and subsequently is slaughtered by the weaker opponent because its piece material simply cannot keep up with the opponents overwhelming force, even if wielded by a less competent player. So I would say using Smirf in connection with piece values is a particularly bad example.

As for your scientific method, you seem to forget that science is about explaining observed FACTS. So if your 'coherent, logical, consistent' theory predicts that A is of nearly equal value as B+N, while in practice the B+N have a losing disadvantage, I would say the World would was better off without it. A theory not explaining the facts can at most contribute to MISunderstanding of relative piece values... The ones who determine the facts through accurate measurement thus contribute in an absolutely essential way to our understanding, as without such facts the theoreticians cannot even start their work.

Your 'understanding' of piece values is such that you consider piece values that do have C-A different from R-B 'flawed'. I.e., to be flawless in your eyes, a theory would have to predict that two pieces which perform equally (C and A) have to be assigned values that differ by several Pawns, or pieces that differ by several Pawns in strength (R and B) to be assigned a value that is equal. Why would I read a 58-page monologue from someone adhering to such flawed logic? It can only be a waste of time. And the FACT that C offers no significant advantage over A in Capablanca Chess games won't go away by it...

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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