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H.G.Muller wrote on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 07:10 AM UTC:

Why would I have to add Larry Kaufman to your list of 'insufferably stupid
people'? In the page you quote he has C-A only 50cP, very close to my
25cP, while having R-B at the usual value of 200cP.

Let me remind you that I was not originally discussing your theoretical
model at all, but the piece values given by Hans Aberg in this
Chessvariants item, and how they violate empirical observation. It was
YOUR claim that the empirical observations were at odds with the
predictions of your model, and by inference thus falsified the latter.

If you now want to retract that claim, and replace it by one that says
that the piece values I observed (P=85, N=300, B=350(+40 for pair), R=475,
A=875, C=900, Q=950) are exactly what your model predicts, it _might_ be
useful to look at your model. But not before. I wonder why you expect
anyone to read 58 pages of low-density information that you yourself claim
to give wrong results. Of course I have not done such 'homework'. Why
would I have the slightest interest in wrong piece values, if I already
have a quite accurate set of good piece values? It is your brain child,
and if you claim it to be at odds with the facts, I believe you on your
word!

You have been a bit ambivalent in your claims, to say the least, first
fiving a list of piece values where A~B+N, and later claiming there was no
discrepancy with A>>B+N in the opening setup. This is why I asked you to
take a clear stance on some very specific positions involving A vs C and A
vs B+N imbalances. And of course you could not do it...

But to conclude this discussion:
people that want to play Capablanca-type Chess games, or have their
computer programs play such games, guided by piece values, had better use
the values I give, if they want to win any games. If the values given by
your model are the same, OK, then they could use those too. If not, by
using the latter as guidance, they will have to get used to playing losing
Chess. Such are the facts of life, no matter how 'flawed',
'inconsistent' and 'illogical' you consider them to be. Life sucks, so
better get used to it!

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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