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H.G.Muller wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 08:11 PM UTC:

Reinhard,

Apparently my point is not yet clear. My conclusion on piece values has
nothing to do with the fact that Joker80 ends consistently above Smirf in
10x8 Chess tourneys, and that Joker values pieces in one way, and Smirf
values them in another. This indeed is not proof for anything.

The result is 100% based on the fact that if I let engines play positions
with material imbalance, certain combinations of pieces systematically
beat other combinations, if the players are equally strong (e.g. because
they are identical). This is independent of the engine used, provided it
is not completely silly. No matter how you PROGRAMMED Smirf to value the
Archbishop, you cannot prevent that Smirf that plays a complex position
with where it has A will systematically beat the Smirf that has B+N+P in
stead. Because A is much stronger than B+N+P, and Smirf's search will
discover that, because it can use the A to gobble up Pawns which the B+N
will not be able to defend. And even if it could trade the A for B+N, and
wuld think it is an equal trade, it will most of the time prefer to win a
Pawn. And by the time it has captured the Pawn, the win of the other Pawn
will be within the horizon, and then another. And when the opponent is out
of Pawns, its own passers will get the promotion within the horizon. Most
of the time you will not be able to fool the search by giving it faulty
piece values.

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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