Enter Your Reply

The Comment You're Replying To

H.G.Muller wrote on Fri, Apr 25, 2008 01:30 PM UTC:

Hans Aberg:
| If it is doubled, then in a 7-ply search, if the positions are 
| independent, a search for all would require 2^7 = 128 more positions 
| to search for. If there are 10 times more average moves, then 10^7 
| more positions need to be searched.
Well, actually alpha-beta pruning makes it such that in a 7-ply search you
would only need 2^4 = 16 times as many positions, or 10^4 times. (And, as
the number of transpositions would likely go up, you would save a lot of
that with a hash table.) But these are still respectable numbers, so you
would perhaps only be able to do a 5-ply or a 4-ply search. 

But it is still not clear to me that a Human would not suffer as bad from
this. The game of Arimaa was a deliberate attempt to defeat computers
through this strategy, by creating branchin ratios of thousands. But I am
not sure if this has been succesful. The prevailing opinion under Chess
programmers is that computers are poor at Arimaa not because it is too
challenging, but mainly because no serious programmer cares...

Furthermore, computers are not really totally ignorant on strategical
matters either. But they cannot found by search, and must be programmed in
the evaluation. So it would also depend on the difficulty to recgnize the
strategical patterns for a computer as opposed to a Human. And until the
game strongly simplifies, the main strategic goal is usually to gain
material, using piece values as an objective. Unless the opponent really
ignores his King safety. Then the strategic goal will become to start a
mating attack.

Edit Form

Comment on the page Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess

Name or UserID: Password: if signing in with UserIDRating: Comment or question:
Format:

Conduct Guidelines

This is a Chess variants website, not a general forum.: Please limit your comments to Chess variants or the operation of this site.
Keep this website a safe space for Chess variant hobbyists of all stripes.: Because we want people to feel comfortable here no matter what their political or religious beliefs might be, we ask you to avoid discussing politics, religion, or other controversial subjects here. No matter how passionately you feel about any of these subjects, just take it someplace else.
Avoid Inflammatory Comments: If you are feeling anger, keep it to yourself until you calm down. Avoid insulting, blaming, or attacking someone you are angry with. Focus criticisms on ideas rather than people, and understand that criticisms of your ideas are not personal attacks and do not justify an inflammatory response.

Quick Markdown Guide

By default, new comments may be entered as Markdown, simple markup syntax designed to be readable and not look like markup. Comments stored as Markdown will be converted to HTML by Parsedown before displaying them. This follows the Github Flavored Markdown Spec with support for Markdown Extra. For a good overview of Markdown in general, check out the Markdown Guide. Here is a quick comparison of some commonly used Markdown with the rendered result:

# Top level header: `<H1>`

> Block quote 
>
> Second paragraph in block quote

First Paragraph of response. *Italics*, **bold**, and ***bold italics***.

Second Paragraph after blank line. Here is some <U>HTML code</U> mixed in with the Markdown, and here is the same `<U>HTML code</U>` enclosed by backticks.

## Secondary Header: `<H2>`

* Unordered list item
* Second unordered list item
+ New unordered list
    * Nested list item
- An URL by itself:
    + https://www.chessvariants.com
- A text link:
    - [The Chess Variant Pages](https://www.chessvariants.com)

### Third Level header `<H3>`
	
1. An ordered list item.
1. A second ordered list item with the same number.
2. A third ordered list item.

~~~
Here is some preformatted text.
  This line begins with some indentation.
    This begins with even more indentation.
And this line has no indentation.
~~~

![Alt text for a graphic image](/graphics.dir/cvp-logo-draft8.png)

A definition list
: A list of terms, each with one or more definitions following it.
: An HTML construct using the tags `<DL>`, `<DT>` and `<DD>`.

A term
: Its definition after a colon.
: A second definition.
: A third definition.

Another term following a blank line
: The definition of that term.

Top level header: `<H1>`

Block quote

Second paragraph in block quote

First Paragraph of response. Italics, bold, and bold italics.

Second Paragraph after blank line. Here is some HTML code mixed in with the Markdown, and here is the same <U>HTML code</U> enclosed by backticks.

Secondary Header: `<H2>`

Unordered list item
Second unordered list item

New unordered list
- Nested list item

An URL by itself:
- https://www.chessvariants.com
A text link:
- The Chess Variant Pages

Third Level header `<H3>`

An ordered list item.
A second ordered list item with the same number.
A third ordered list item.

Here is some preformatted text.
  This line begins with some indentation.
    This begins with even more indentation.
And this line has no indentation.

A definition list: A list of terms, each with one or more definitions following it.; An HTML construct using the tags <DL>, <DT> and <DD>.
A term: Its definition after a colon.; A second definition.; A third definition.
Another term following a blank line: The definition of that term.

Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

Number of ratings: 1, Average rating: Good, Number of comments: 124

Enter Your Reply

Top level header: <H1>

Secondary Header: <H2>

Third Level header <H3>

Top level header: `<H1>`

Secondary Header: `<H2>`

Third Level header `<H3>`