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H.G.Muller wrote on Mon, Apr 28, 2008 06:59 PM UTC:

Hans Aberg:
| Perhaps the statistical method is only successful because it is 
| possible by a brute-force search to seek out positions not covered 
| by the classical theory.

I am not sure what 'brute force' you are referring to. Do you consider
Monte-Carlo sampling of a quantity you want to measure a 'brute force'
approach? I would associate that more with exhaustive search. Playing a
few thousand games can hardly be called 'exhaustive', considering the
size of the game tree for Chess.

What do you mean by 'classical theory'? Are you referring to the piece
value system 1,3,3,5,9, or some more elaborate point system including
positional advantages, or very complex methods of proving a certain
position can be won against any play?

What does it matter anyway how the piece-value system for normal Chess was
historically constructed anyway? Don't you agree that the best way to play
the game through a piece-value heuristic is to make sure that positions
with better piece values (in your favor, i.e. yours minus those of the
opponent) will have a better probability to be won? (It will be understood
that the heuristic will only be applied to 'quiet positions': the players
are supposed to be smart enough to search low-depth tactical trees that
makes them recognize that the are not a Pawn ahead but a Queen behind when
the opponent has a passer that they cannot stop, or has the move and can
capture their hanging Queen.)

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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