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Rococo. A clear, aggressive Ultima variant on a 10x10 ring board. (10x10, Cells: 100) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Thu, Nov 3, 2005 03:45 PM UTC:
Is it legal for a Chameleon to hop over a longleaper and capture it, by landing on a enemy pawn, and also capturing it? This problem arised during a game.
You know, there are times when I wish we had left Chameleons out -- they make up the vast bulk of rules questions! After thinking about this one for a few minutes, I think I have a correct answer, or at least an answer consistent with our other rulings.

It seems to me in this case:

+---+---+---+---+
| C | l | p |   |
+---+---+---+---+
It would be OK, since the Cameleon's Cannon Pawn capture allows the move in the first place, even though the Long Leaper move could not be made, but once the Pawn capture move is made, you can say it is also a Long Leaper capture because the Cameleon has successfully leapt over the opposing Long Leaper.

However, in this case:

+---+---+---+---+
| C |   | l | p |
+---+---+---+---+
It would not be legal, since neither the Chameleon can neither make a Long Leaper capture nor a Cannon Pawn capture, so it would never get started.

David, are you out there? Would you like to comment?


Anonymous wrote on Tue, Nov 15, 2005 08:59 PM UTC:
The rules for the Long Leaper as written are ambiguous. The offending
phrase in the list of moves the Long Leaper may not make 'jump over
adjacent pieces' might be interperpereted in two different ways. 

I think we can determine the correct rule by examining the author's
intent and the history of Ultima.

First, the Rococo LL rules are cut and pasted from this site's Ultima
rules. This indicates that the author intends the LL to have the same
move
in Rococo as it has in Ultima (the special circumstance of edge square
excepted).

So the question resolves into what is the correct rule in Ultima. In
'Abbott's New Card Games', Abbott lists the sources for the capture
powers in Ultima. The capture power of the Long Leaper is stated to be
derived form those checker variants where kings can leap over and capture
enemy pieces anywhere on the same diagonal line. Abbott limits the
capture
power by prohibiting change of direction, but the LL's capture power is
otherwise not altered from these checker variants. 

The rules of these several checker variants are unambiguous: a king may
capture a piece adjacent to itself, but may not capture two or more
enemies  adjacent to one another: there must be a vacant landing square
for each capture.

Therefor the correct rule is that the Long Leaper may capture a piece
adjacent to itself as long as a landing square is available, but may not
capture (or leap over without capturing), two or more mtutually adjacent
pieces--that is, a landing square is required for each capture.

I agree that this rule should be rephrased on both the Rococo and Ultima
pages.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, Nov 15, 2005 09:57 PM UTC:
It's not too hard to examine the history of Ultima, but it's pretty
hard,
on the other hand, to examine the history of the author's intent.  How
are
you going to examine the intent?

It's certainly reasonable to assume that Rococo descends from the games
of Baroque (from the name itself) or from Ultima (by which other name it
is known, admitting the possibility of house rules that distinguish the
two) but it appears to be pretty hard to arrive at a statement of intent.

How would we know now, long after the act of the game' creation, what it
was at the time of creation?

Did the author address the matter then, or is the author addressing the
matter now, as in a 'nunc pro tunc' solution for what now appears to be
a problem?

💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Nov 16, 2005 05:01 AM UTC:
Well, the new phrasing for the Long Leaper should hopefully be a bit more clear. Really, I suppose the whole page could use a good going over. As for the history of Rococo's design, you can find a brief discussion in the Kibbitz section of this game here.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on Wed, Nov 16, 2005 11:26 PM UTC:
talking about 'authors intent' by 'none' a few comments ago, i don't
think it matters how the inventor of ultima (Robert Abbott) intended the
longleaper to move, at the time of creation, i think it matters more how
he thinks it should move right now. 
an author can create a game, and all the pieces move 'as intended', but
that doesn't mean the game will play 'as intended' .. for 'some reason
or other' .. and i don't think that is a fault by the author, games with
unusual pieces probably have to be play tested for awhile, and not
everyone has the chance to do that. i don't see a problem 'adjusting' a
game to 'fine tune' it, at a later date.
as far as the authors of games that sprung from ultima, they too should
adjust the movement of the longleaper to play best for their game, seeing
some of these 'ultima' games turned out to be different, and really
their own game, inspired from ultima.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Wed, Nov 16, 2005 11:44 PM UTC:
Ultima is a relatively popular game (much less than Chess, of course, but more than many people think), I am an 'experienced' relatively good Ultima player (but far from master level, I think) and I have played it since many years before I knew about TCVP. It is played around the world, and it is played as described in this Pages almost everywhere, at least as I know. Usually, Ultima players are not gained for changes in the game, and once I have received hard words from an Ultima fan by my proposed 'Ultimatum', a game that was thought to be, in essence, a supposed 'improvement' of Ultima. Rococo is not an unknown game, it is eventually played by some Ultima fans, although it is less popular than Ultima. Rococo fans seems to be also contrary to changes in the game.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Thu, Nov 17, 2005 12:02 AM UTC:
Ultima is a great game, regardless some details... And, regardless the opinion of its inventor, Ultima fans love the game as is. Particularilly, I prefer Maxima, Fugue and Rococo, although I have to say that these three games are very different in the dynamics and game play than Ultima, and very different each one to the other two, although all of them were somewhat inspired by ULTIMA.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on Thu, Nov 17, 2005 12:03 AM UTC:
yeah change is a heavy thing, it is a wonder that standard chess today ever came about.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Thu, Nov 17, 2005 12:18 AM UTC:
Long Leaper movement is well described in this pages. 'Leapers' could be the initial idea, in the early Baroque game, although the 'modern' ULTIMA has accepted Long-Leapers instead of single Leapers. Other rules could have historic importance in the evolution of the game, and it has its merits, so if there are fans of these rules, it should be considered normal, as they are Shatranj fans today, by example

Anonymous wrote on Sat, Nov 19, 2005 07:14 AM UTC:
In Rococo, the invention of the cannonball pawn as a 'nearleaper' (limited to capturing pieces two squares away) seems to be in stark contrast to the invention of the 'Long Leaper' as a piece that can attack distant targets, three or more squares away. It is not too likely that cannonball pawn and leaper share the same method of capture, though it is conceivable. On balance, however, it is reasonable to assume that all pieces would have their own forms of capture, that both the Long Leaper and the Advancer are equally prohibited from capturing adjacent pieces, and that adjacent captures were intended to be limited to the King and the Withdrawer.

As was mentioned earlier, there is no way of gauging a history of 'design intent' short of reviewing the games available to the designer at the time the game was designed, and paying special attention to the comments that were written back when the game was designed. Waiting a few years for some differences to arise, and then looking at the new comments, is only good for saying what the designer's current intentions might be, not what they were when the game was first designed.


💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Mon, Nov 21, 2005 08:11 PM UTC:
that both the Long Leaper and the Advancer are equally prohibited from capturing adjacent pieces, and that adjacent captures were intended to be limited to the King and the Withdrawer.
Except that the Long Leaper has always been able to capture an adjacent piece as long as the next square is empty. The Rococo Long Leaper was borrowed from Ultima unchanged. It is simply unfortunate that the piece description was badly phrased. However the ZRF and the animated diagram always demonstrated the correct behavior.

Anonymous wrote on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 03:12 AM UTC:
The issue, here, is how a new game distinguishes itself from other, older games.

It does so by reference to the rules that are similar, and by contrast to the rules that are different. We ought to know that Rococo somehow descends from Baroque. That much we should know from the way their names are spelled. But there is also the issue of the extent of the game's inheritance. At this point, it is unclear whether the Leaper of Rococo was actually intended to be any bit different from the Leaper of Baroque, which I assume to be the same as the Long Leaper of Ultima. Perhaps we should dwell a moment on the nomenclature for the Leaper, and conclude that games with 'Long' Leapers operate according to different sets of rules than those other games featuring general purpose leapers. (Even the cannonball pawn, for instance, is arguably a kind of Leaper, one that forbids capturing adjacent pieces in favor of those one square away.) But unless someone can cite a reference that can be accurately dated back to the time that Rococo was invented, it will ultimately be a matter moot than dispositive.

Short of that, we could just as soon flip a nickel.


💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 05:05 AM UTC:
But unless someone can cite a reference that can be accurately dated back to the time that Rococo was invented, it will ultimately be a matter moot than dispositive.
Err, I do happen to be one of the game's designers you know, and it wasn't so long ago that I've forgotten what we did. And for that matter, being the packrat that I am, I still have the original e-mails that David and I exchanged in late 2001.

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 06:15 AM UTC:
It seems to me that the person making these long anonymous comments should identify himself/herself somehow, especially, now that he proposes to 'flip a nickel'!

Thomas McElmurry wrote on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 11:01 AM UTC:
If a nickel is to be flipped, I propose the following:
  • If the nickel comes up heads, we believe the written rules, which have consistently indicated that Rococo's Long Leaper moves and captures in the same way as Ultima's Long Leaper.
  • If the nickel comes up tails, we believe the testimony of the game's inventor, Peter Aronson, who has consistently indicated that Rococo's Long Leaper moves and captures in the same way as Ultima's Long Leaper.
  • If the nickel balances on its edge, then we'll have to think of something else. Pistols at dawn?

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Mon, Dec 12, 2005 05:20 AM UTC:
...or, peacefully split the difference!

Anonymous wrote on Tue, Dec 13, 2005 03:48 AM UTC:
No need for splitting the difference, just play the game both ways: one version for people that insist on 'Long Leapers' having the power of 'Near Leapers' - and another version for those that prefer to play it the other way.

(As for reference to old emails, unless they are extremely old documents, they'd have to be subject to authentication somehow, and I'm not sure they are even capable of that.)


Tony Quintanilla wrote on Tue, Dec 13, 2005 06:16 PM UTC:
To anonymous: I was being facetious. There is no difference to split between what the rules say and what the inventor says.

Todor Tchervenkov wrote on Sat, Jul 22, 2006 04:57 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Hi! I was exploring Rococo's ZRF, I found many divergences between what I
was expected to be correct and what does Zillions do.
Now I have many questions to any one concerned with Rococo:
1) wether the Chameleon could swap with the Swapper, jumping over any Long
leaper;
2) wether the Chameleon could swap and capture any Withdrawer or
Advancer;
3) wether a Pawn that's already on the 9th rank could promote by moving
sidewards (it's clear it could not go to the 10th rank);
4) wether a piece on the outer ring could 'commit suicide' (i.e. - does
this count as capturing?).

I will appreciate having authors' opinion.

Thanks a lot.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2006 12:50 AM UTC:
Well, I am not an author, but I think the answers are:
1.- No.
2.- No.
3.- Yes.

Todor Tchervenkov wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2006 10:55 AM UTC:
I find Rococo to be a very unclear game, regardless it claims clarity. But I like the game and I consider 'Yes' for 1 to 3 and 'No' for question number 4.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2006 02:47 PM UTC:
I also consider 'NO' for question number 4, although I differ to you in other answers, as you see. Authors have to clarify.

Thomas McElmurry wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2006 08:53 PM UTC:
The answer to all four questions is 'yes'.

1-2: The rules on this page state quite clearly, 'Swaps with Swappers may be combined with other captures.' Also, the animated illustration unambiguously shows a Chameleon swapping with a Swapper and capturing a Withdrawer, a Long Leaper, and an Advancer in the same move.

3: The only requirement for promotion is that the Cannon Pawn's move end on the 9th or 10th rank. There is no restriction on where the move must begin. Therefore a Cannon Pawn may promote after moving along the 9th rank.

4: A move to an edge square is permitted only when necessary for a capture. Moves from edge squares are unrestricted. Suicide by an immobilized piece on an edge square is surely not a move to an edge square, and is therefore permitted.


💡📝Peter Aronson wrote on Mon, Jul 24, 2006 07:50 PM UTC:
Thomas McElmurry had it all correct. The ZRF is, alas, as less than perfect guide to the Rococo rules, particularly those for the Chameleon, which got rather complicated and are still incomplete.

Rococo's claim to clarity is a matter of how clear the moves and captures of the pieces are, not, alas the clarity of either the write-up or the ZRF. Game rules are really hard to write well, and just when you think you've made everything unambigious, a new issue arises. As for the ZRF, probably it needs to be coded again from scratch, but I don't think either Dave nor I have the time nor energy these days. Sorry.


James Spratt wrote on Wed, Jul 26, 2006 09:23 AM UTC:
Those animated illustrations of how the pieces move are extremely clear and effective. Hat's off to Peter and David.

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