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Huge variants[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Tue, Apr 25, 2023 05:49 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Tue Apr 18 08:06 AM:

dear HG. No pb with your choice of names. After Rhitmomachy, Ouranomachy, Metromachy, we are into a secular tradition


H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Apr 25, 2023 06:21 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 05:49 PM:

OK, thanks! I also thought about 'Meteramachy' for 'Mother of Battles', but I suppose this is syntactically incorrect, because it would need the 2nd declination plural of 'machy'. So I suppose it should be 'Meteramachoon'.

(I googled for the declination of Greek nouns, to see how words ending with the letter eta would fare. And, belief it or not, the first hit I got actually used the word μάχη as example! :-) )


H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Apr 26, 2023 08:55 PM UTC:

I wonder if there would still be market for an even larger chess variant. After all, Dai Dai and Maka Dai Dai Shogi have 2x96 pieces, which still surpasses the 2x80 of Megalomachy. (But 18th-century Buddhist Monks might have been much more patient than modern westerners...) On an 18x18 board, maintaining the 6-rank distance between the armies, there would be room for 6 x 18 = 108 pieces in each camp. But with so many ranks in the camp there is ample room for 12 empty squares in it without making it too easy to avert the danger of a suffocated mate. E.g. put the empty squares only on the 3rd and 4th rank, in the wings. That would bring the piece density to 60%, which I think is acceptable. The 5th rank, directly behind the Pawns, would remain fully filled, so the slow minors could be placed there to give them optimally fast access to the battle.

Compared to Megalomachy I could put two copies of all super-pieces other than Amazon (which then symmetrically pairs with the King). That would give an extra Lion, Queen, Griffon, Rhino, Marshall and Archbishop, while there would of course also be 2 extra Pawns. So that already makes 8 extra pieces. I think with so many pieces it would require an extra pair of ultra-powerful pieces (Terrorinos or Terrorissimos) protected by anti-trading rules to keep the game fluid . With so many super-pieces there would have to be a wider shield against flying attacks to shelter behind. (Just placing the shield more forward would make it too easy to slip behind it from the wings.) This would need an extra pair of pieces that block flying captures. The WD (which was not in Megalomachy but replaced by the Omega Champion WAD there) could be given this role. That leaves room for two more piece pairs. A good choice would be the Omega Wizard (as we already have the Champion) as a rook-class piece, and perhaps two extra Warriors.

The Terrorino could be a Queen that could also capture as a limited-range Locust: on the 1st or 2nd square in each direction, by landing directly behind it (i.e. a tuned-down version of the Teaching King from Maka Dai Dai Shogi). Or, if that makes it too strong, just on the 2nd square, and then also a non-destructive jump to that.


Aurelian Florea wrote on Thu, Apr 27, 2023 05:48 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Wed Apr 26 08:55 PM:

HG,

If you use the WAD, you may also think about the FAH as it works somewhat the same but with a bit more of a diagonal flavor.


H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Apr 27, 2023 09:31 AM UTC in reply to Aurelian Florea from 05:48 AM:

FAH would indeed be a good choice for a 12-target leaper on a large board. In this particular case it has a bit too much overlap with the FH (Frog) and FA (Elephant) that I already have. When I used the WAD (Champion) it was as a replacement for WD (War Machine). Of course it still had overlap with the WA (Archer), but the latter is really a special-purpose piece here, because of its blocking power for flying captures. If I would have a need for upgrading another minor, the FAH would certainly be a prime candidate as a replacement for the Elephant or Frog.

Having two copies of most super-pieces really unbalances the piece-value spectrum a bit. So perhaps an 18x18 variant should have more 12-target leapers. On these large boards the leapers get weaker compared to the sliders, and consequently slider-leaper compounds also start to lag behind pure sliders. E.g. the difference between Marshall or Archbishop on the one hand and Queen on the other increases with board size. In particular pieces with 8 sliding directions become very strong, and Griffon and Rhino also belong in that class. So perhaps I should not have two Queens and two Griffons, and introduce another pair of rook-class pieces instead. A sliding version of the FAH (BH) might also be a good choice, to stay on the high-value side of the Rook. (The 12-target leapers also suffer from the large board, compared to sliders.)


H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, Apr 28, 2023 08:02 AM UTC:

I was running out of ideas for adding other rook-class pieces. Leapers with 12 move targets can play that role, but I dislike having pieces that just add 4 moves to a piece that already participates. This is what you automatically get when you use an oblique atom in them, as these already have 8 moves, and the pure N, C and Z already participate. As an exeption I do allow the Omega-Chess Wizard (FC), because it is a well-known and popular piece, while the Omega-Chess Champion (WAD) is acceptable despite its overlap with WA and WD because the latter two in the variant I am contemplating would have the special ability to block flying captures, which makes them very different even from a normal piece that would move exactly the same. Since all combinations of pairs of W, F, D, A already do occur as minors, the non-inclusion requirement would limit sufficiently non-overlapping 12-target leapers to compounds that contain both G and H. This leads to unattractive and difficult-to-master move patterns.

But then it occurred to me that pieces can also be weakened by making them lame, rather than reducing the number of move targets. A lame 16-target leaper might have a value similar to a true 12-target leaper. And lame leaps are not counter-intuitive. (In fact every distant slider move is one, and we understand sliding.) In particular, the following pieces seem nice:

  • A (lame) Squirrel (nAnDnN, where the non-jumping N move is the multi-path Moo.
  • The nHnGnCnZ ('Snake'), where the nCnZ part is George Duke's multi-path Falcon.

The heuristic of the interactive Diagram guestimates Champion, Wizard, Cannon and Bishop on 18x18 around 500 (where the 8-target leapers and Vao are around 300), the Squirrel at 600, the Rook at 650, and the Snake and Dragon Horse (BW) around 750. For comparison, Queen is valued 1350, Marshall (RN) 1100, Griffon and Lion around 1200.

Thus this Squirrel and Snake fit well in the set of pieces that can be traded 2-1 for a super-piece (plus Pawn). Or together with a minor for one of the weaker super-pieces.


H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, Apr 28, 2023 06:02 PM UTC:

This is as large as I want to go: 2 x 96 pieces on an 18 x 18 board:

satellite=big files=18 ranks=18 promoZone=1 maxPromote=2 promoChoice=EA,AM,G graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ squareSize=33 graphicsType=png theme=DD whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b borders=0 firstRank=1 useMarkers=1 newClick=1 captureMatrix=/"32/31^6=/"/31^6%%=/37%%/" pawn::fmWfceFifmnDifmnH::a6-r6 warrior::fmWfmnnDfceFbhcN:quickpawn:a2-e2,n2-r2 ram:RM:mgQcfD::c1,p1,f2,m2 scout::mNcA:knightpawn:g5,l5 vao::mBpcB::e1,n1 camel::::b4,q4 zebra::::d4,o4 elephant::FA:elephantferz:e5,n5 spider:SP:AH::i2,j2 frog::FH::a5,r5 prince:PR:KfmnD:duke:c5,p5 knight:N:::f5,m5 bishop::::i5,j5 cannon:CN:::f1,m1 wizard:WZ:FC:mage:d1,o1 champion:CH:WAD::f4,m4 rook::::a3,r3 squirrel:SQ:nAnDnN::h5,k5 dragon horse:DH:BW:promotedbishop:b5,q5 dragon king:DK:RF:promotedrook:a1,r1 snake:SN:nCnZnGnH::e3,n3 nightrider:NR:::b1,q1 leo:LE:mQpcQ:paovao:c3,p3 rhino:RH:[W?fsB]::g1 gryphon::[F?fsR]::l2 archbishop:::cardinal:d5,o5 marshall:::chancellor:i3 queen::::k1 lion::KNAD::g2 amazon:AM:QN::h1 archer:AR:WA::g4,l4 spearman:SM:FD:nspearman:g3,l3 war machine:D:WD:warmachinewazir:h4,k4 bat:BA:B(paf)14cB::i4,j4 raven:FA:R(paf)14cR:bird2:h2,k2 eagle:EA:Q(paf)14cQ:bird:i1,j1 terrorino:TO:QADmpafcafmK:sabretooth:j3 terror::QNADcamK:dragon:h3,k3 king::KispO9::l1

Rather than doubling many of the super pieces, I only doubled the Archbishop, and added a new (anti-trade protected) monster piece in a single copy (the Terrorino). Compared to Megalomachy there are two more Pawns (wider board!) and two more Warriors. The remaining 10 extra pieces are new and appear in pairs: The Spider (a new minor, AH), the Omega-Chess Wizard and Champion, the (lame) Squirrel (NAD), and the Snake (lame GHCZ), all rook class.

The setup has a few 'air holes', to limit the density to 60%. These should allow reasonably easy development of most pieces. E.g. after the Lion is gone, the Rhino and Amazon have a nearly free diagonal (assuming 5th-rank pieces are developed quickly). And on the other Wing the Griffon can leave over the m-file, and the Queen along the diagonal that this opens.

The Spiders start rather backward, but by their H move they can jump over the serial defense shield, to reach the Bishop squares (after these have been developed, which should have high priority, as those files are vulnerable to Cannon attack). After the Spiders move on, the Marshall, Terrors and Terrorino can use those squares, as these are all jumping pieces.


Edward Webb wrote on Fri, Apr 28, 2023 08:34 PM UTC:

There's a large number of pieces which would struggle to checkmate a king. A player that's behind would be tempted to capture all of their opponent's pawns and hope that there is insufficient mating material.

One suggestion is for pieces to be able to promote to themselves plus a king movement when entering the opponent's camp, with the idea of king + any being able to checkmate a lone king.

Some pieces would benefit more than others, though. Also, the game would become more complicated as the piece values would change.


H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, Apr 29, 2023 05:47 AM UTC in reply to Edward Webb from Fri Apr 28 08:34 PM:

Having most pieces promote makes the game more shogi-like than chess-like, and I would like to avoid that. For this reason I also specified promotion on last rank, rather than in the camp.

If mating potential would be a problem, I'd rather adopt the rule that a bare King loses. But I am not sure it would be a problem. Eliminating all Pawns when you are behind is easier said than done. When behind, you will not be in a position to gain them. So you would have to sacrifice them away, where each Pawn would cost you yet another piece. For the Rams that is fine, as these are practictically useless on a near-empty board, if not from the very beginning. But there are many more Pawns than Rams, and you would have to eliminate the Warriors too.

I have little doubt that 3 minors could checkmate a bare King, even on 18x18.


Aurelian Florea wrote on Wed, May 3, 2023 03:01 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Sat Apr 29 05:47 AM:

Thinking about the FAH (which I call Siege Elephant in my games) and the champion there is also the WL (That I call Mamluk) and the FL (the wizard). So you may have a variation on the game where the WAD and FL are replaced by FAH and WL.

See now why I prefer to make variations on the same theme? Or it could be just me being weird, I guess.

Actually I do not now how this goes with your other pieces. But if you replace the FA with WD it is probably the same.

Also, the craziness could go on, you know?

And another thing. Have you considered bent riders that bend after more then 1 move: the R2 then bishop or the B2 then rook? They probably work well in such variants.


H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, May 4, 2023 08:10 AM UTC in reply to Aurelian Florea from Wed May 3 03:01 PM:

Since these variants have so many piece types, I tried to pick mainly pieces that a player might already be familiar with. This is why I preferred WAD and FC over FAH and WC, and avoided bent sliders that turn after two steps. I had my doubts on FC, because I already have a pure C. But because it is such a well-known piece I considered it admissble. Other compounds of C plus a 4-target atom (such as WC) would suffer from the same lack of distinction with the pure C, and would not have the benefit of being somewhat familiar.

I could not afford eliminating the Camel itself, because there aren't too many totally symmetric 8-target leapers, and I needed everyone I could get to have enough knight-class pieces. But when I want to avoid including pieces that differ from each other by just having 4 extra moves, that leaves almost no 12-target leapers.


New book on chess variants[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sat, May 13, 2023 06:55 AM UTC:

I have the pleasure to announce my latest book, "More Chess & More Than Chess", finally published 3 years after I started this project. It is available on various platforms, preferably here, on Lulu.com

This book gives many details about chess variants, a large chapter of their history, a one-by-one presentation of many fairy pieces and then, it presents 20 selected chess variants. 10 of them are mine (Shako, Tamerlane II, Metamachy, Very Large Chess, Zanzibar/Maasai, Pemba, Gigachess, Terachess, Fantastic XIII, Rollerball) and 10 are among those I prefer in the category of large CVs. There are Musketeer Chess from Zied Haddad, Sac Chess from Kevin Pacey, Opulent Chess from Greg Strong, Expanded Chess and Enhanced Courier Chess from Daniel Zacharias, Elven Chess from H.G. Muller, Eurasian Chess and Gross Chess from Fergus Duniho, Hectochess from Adam de Witt and Obento Chess from Eric Silverman.

These authors are acknowledged for their co-operation here. I also want to deeply thanks H.G. Muller who wrote two contributions in this book about the history of chess variants and computers, and about the estimation of pieces' value. H.G. made also the excellent suggestion, and even developed the online appendix of this book, where all these games can be played with Interactive Diagrams and benefit from the numerous features of this application. It can be found here:

http://history.chess.free.fr/mcmtc/appendix/index.html

Finally, this book would not exist without the endless help of Paul Rapoport, "Numerist" on this web place, who has accompanied me all along these 3 years, providing precious advices and opinions and, above all, checking every word, every sign of punctuation, as English is not my mother tongue as you can guess reading this message. This book is also his book.

I hope you will find it interesting and I will be very glad if it emulates some new creations of fantastic chess variants in the future.

 


H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, May 14, 2023 07:36 AM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Sat May 13 06:55 AM:

I can add that the book is printed in color!


Huge variants[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, May 17, 2023 02:29 PM UTC:

The idea to give the Ram a large speed without giving it a large value by giving it Grasshopper-like non-captures can be applied to more-valuable pieces as well. In particular the short-range leapers would benefit from it. When the Elephant gets an extra diagonal hop (FAmgB), and the War Machine an extra orthogonal hop (WDmgR), they can get quickly deployed to distant locations. I will call this 'air lifting'. The Prince could get this instead of the forward double step (KmgR).

With an adjacent blocker the air lift would coincide with the A or D jump the piece would have anyway, so on average this gives not many extra moves. So it won't drive up the value too much. An alternative would be to only give the pieces cA an cD, so that the mgB or mgR air lift replace the mA and mD part of the piece.

In a similar spirit, the Prince could get its non-capture K moves replaced by the move to the most-distant square on a Q trajectory. (Like in All-the-Way Chess, cKyafpoabQ). Perhaps stopping just before the obstacle is also more natural for the other minors than landing immediately behind it.


Cleric[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:08 AM UTC:
Cleric
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::c3,e3,g3,c5,g5,c7,e7,g7,,d4,f4,d6,f6

Thief[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:30 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::c3,e3,g3,c5,g5,c7,e7,g7,

Black Mage[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:37 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,d3,f3,c4,d4,f4,g4,c6,d6,f6,g6,d7,f7

White Mage[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:39 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,d3,f3,c4,e4,g4,d5,f5,c6,e6,g6,d7,f7

Sorcerer[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:44 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,d3,f3,c4,d4,e4,f4,g4,d5,f5,c6,d6,e6,f6,g6,d7,f7

Caster[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:49 AM UTC:
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Diver[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:54 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,c3,g3,d4,e4,f4,d5,f5,d6,e6,f6,c7,g7

Conjurer[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 09:58 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,e3,d4,f4,c5,g5,d6,f6,e7

Clergyman[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 10:14 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::c3,g3,c7,g7,,e4,d5,f5,e6

Black Clergyman[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 10:17 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::e3,c5,g5,e7,,d4,f4,d6,f6

Prince[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
hirosi Kano wrote on Thu, May 18, 2023 10:25 AM UTC:
promoChoice=NBRQ graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ whitePrefix=w blackPrefix=b graphicsType=png squareSize=54 symmetry=none unicorn::::e5, circle::::,,c3,e3,g3,d4,e4,f4,c5,d5,f5,g5,d6,e6,f6,c7,e7,g7

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