Comments by ChessShogi
Since this comment is for a page that has not been published yet, you must be signed in to read it.
It appears that the Chu Shogi diagram is not letting Pawns promote on the last rank on non-captures like it should, but that can easily be fixed with a morph=| clause right after the Pawn definition.
However, I've discovered that the promotion parameter for morph is blocking out the second player's morphing moves.
A similar issue occurs if I try tio use Tinker(m,d) to solve the problem and return 3 to achieve the same effect, except this actually affects adjacent squares for some reason...
captureMatrix isn't like morph. It should be defined it once per diagram, and each "row" and "column" represents a piece type, not a square, and this includes empty squares if I remember right. See the source (use Ctrl+U) this diagram of Tenjiku Shogi for an example.
It's official. The Lion-trading rules are now properly displayed in the GC preset.
[Edit] I've made modifications to the Chu Shogi GC set files for the Japanese and Latin Chu Shogi pieces so that the size of the highlights matched the size of the piece images, allowing for more user-friendly legal move displays.
I have cleaned up the code for the Chu Shogi preset, and have made a separate preset for testing the Lion-trading rules for the legal moves display.
[Edit]: Good news! The GC Preset now successfully displays the counter-strike rule. Still working on the other Lion-trading rule though.
Now that you say that, it clears up all the previous confusion. I guess my autism got in the way.
[Edit] In the I.D. the AI does this correctly. But the problem is caused by the way the latest user move is passed to the AI. This derives the move from the origin and destination highlights, so it completely misses any locust capture.
I did test the position I gave you by having the AI capture the Lions instead of the user, but this too seems to not properly invoke the counter-strike rule, though I suppose you still have to update the source file. I'm guessing the problem is that the way the AI gets the last move in general is through the origin and destination squares.
I can see the way you interpret "non-lion" in the counter-strike rule becoming a point of contention. The rule does not explicitly say "non-Lion piece" when it says "a non-Lion cannot capture a Lion...", which is the source of this confusion.
If you make the same moves in Jocly, the same thing will happen, just so you know.
One of the LiShogi developers responded to my bug notificaton, but apparently thinks non-lion refers to non-Lion moves though, rather than non-Lion pieces, which leaves me wondering what the general consensus is. I would assume it to be piece types, based on the explanation of the another square clause.
Indeed, it implements the counter-strike rule for single captures. However, the Soaring Eagle and Horned Falcon can move again after stepping in certain directions.
Upon further testing, it seems that the counter-strike rule is not being invoked when a Lion is captured and then the capturer moves away. For example, in this game in the I.D., after promoting the Dragons on h9 and e4, if Black's Soaring Eagle captures White's Lion and then moves to another square afterward, the counter-strike rule will not be invoked and the AI will capture Black's Lion with White's Phoenix.
1. h5 e8 2. Qh4 Qe9 3. Qe7 Qh6 4. Qxe8 Qxh5 5. Qxf9 Qxg4 6. Dd2 Di11 7. Ti2 Td11 8. Oh2 Oe11 9. Tf2 Tg11 10. e5 h8 11. Xe4 Xh9 12. Xg6 Xf7 13. Xxi8 Xxd5 14. Qf5 Qg8 15. Dxh8 Dxe5
The moves you need to make manually are:
16. Dh9+ De4+ 17. +Dxg10xh9
If you make the same moves in Jocly, the same thing will happen.
The same thing happens in LiShogi, since the same behavior is taking place. I have already notified them about what I have found. One of the developers apparently thinks non-lion refers to non-Lion moves though, rather than non-Lion pieces.
Question. In the position below (from LiShogi), Black has just captured White's Lion. The recapture of Black's Lion via White's Soaring Eagle via a Lion move, which is allowed in LiShogi, clearly violates Chu's counter-strike rule, right?
If this is true, then both the Interactive Diagram and the Jocly implementation overlook this restriction when a Lion is captured on the first step of a multi-move.
The GC preset enforces the rule in such situations, but this is not reflected in its display of legal moves.
P.S. I have already notified LiShogi of this via Discord.
The fairychess-style code I was going for was giving me serious grief, so I decided to instead try to implement the Lion-trading rule display in this preset instead. No luck so far, though its plausible I am just being an idiot. For now, I will leave this preset as the default one, and leave it in its current state, which I know works properly. It might not be ideal, but it is good enough. Sometimes I get so wrapped up in whether I could, that I don't stop to think whether I should.
Actually, I'll stick with the current graphics sets for the new Chu preset and add a Mnemonic set based on your Mnemonic pieces that matches the size of the Chu kanji images. I will still make a new preset for the game though.
Speaking of which, I corrected a few mistakes in the alfchushogi set file. Your welcome to the author of said file.
Edit: I've added the Mnemonic set, which is based on LiShogi's set.
Since there are some discrepancies between the current GC preset and the rules that most people have reached a consensus on (mainly having to do with the anti-Lion-trading rules), I will make a new preset that patches them up, and uses sets with larger graphics to make it more user-friendly (specifically, my large Mnemonic pieces, Eric Silverman's 1-kanji pieces, and Bob Greenwade's pictogram pieces, using the XBoard/Interactive Diagram IDs). I also plan on making the preset correctly exclude moves that violate the Lion trading rules when highlighting legal moves.
This new preset will be based on the fairychess codebase and its Chu Seireigi version, and the multi-move code I have in place for the current preset at the time of writing.
Changes coming in new Chu preset (TLDR):
- New graphics sets used (my large Mnemonic piece set, Eric Silverman's 1-Kanji set, and Bob Greenwade Pictogram set)
- Uses XBoard/Interactive Diagram IDs
- Correct exclusion of moves that violate the anti-Lion-trading rules
- Possibly options for certain game situations
- First Lion step after final destination: true or false
- King Baring (uses Shatranj version of the rules for simplicity): true or false
When I first saw this game, I didn't think much of it, since I was more focused on larger Shogi variants, especially Tenjiku Shogi. However, now I have a few games against Jocly under my belt, and wow, this game completely blew me away. It is an absolute joy to play, despite its size and complexity (which melts away after a couple games). However, it is not completely flawless.
Some rules, such as the King Baring rule (Uses Shatranj version, K+G vs. K is mentioned in historical sources) and repetition rules (borrowed from Xiangqi) that are currently played by are modern contaminations from other games and/or are warped versions of things mentioned in the historical documents, but I am willing to include these two rules, as they help with decisiveness without being redundant or overly complicated.
However, I am not willing to play by the "Okazaki" rule, and I would never recommend using it, which allows recapture of a Lion after another Lion has just been captured, if said Lion is unprotected. There is no evidence that it was a part of the historical game, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the rule against indirect Lion trading, so why did someone think it would be a good idea to have this? All it does is add confusion and increases the chance of a simplified game, detracting from the playerr experience.
It is also not clear whether a Lion taking a Pawn/Go Between and then a Lion is allowed if the enemy Lion is undefended after taking the Pawn. Both sides have evidence arguing for them (the hidden protector example for yes, a tsumeshogi in Dr. Eric Silverman's Chu Shogi Part II article, explained in the An interesting quirk in the Lion-trading rules section, for no). Personally, I prefer that is is allowed, since no recapture is possible after the move, and there is no specific mention of this situation in the historic rules.
However, despite these problems, Chu Shogi is still easily among the best games of its kind. If you like Chess variants, you should give it a try.
Addendum - An attempt at a drops-playable Chu Shogi variant
Chu Seireigi is an attempt to combine elements of Chu Shogi with the ruleset of modern Shogi. It also has the benefit of not needing any special rules to preserve its quality, fixing all the problems with the modern "innovations" for Chu Shogi that I mentioned above. Players are disincentivized from trading off the most powerful pieces in many cases because they would just go into the player's hands, making them even more dangerous. The repetition rule is simply that of Shogi (draw, except perpetual check loses), and the drops make King-baring extremely rare. However, this comes with the unfortunate downside of having to remove all the multi-move abilities from the game, as otherwise the balancing would be thrown off.
Thanks. Your stag looks nice.
I think it would look fine either way, as long as the symbols used are consistent (As you have probably guessed at this point, I am a bit of a stickler for cosistency). This is more of a matter of personal taste.
The only thing I'll say is maybe giving the black stag image a black border rather than a white one will make it look a bit better. The white border may make it look out of place compared to the rest of the pieces, at least to me.
I saw that you copied over everything, which is good. However, an unfortunate side effect of this is that the Prancing Stag diagram in Chu Seireigi's rules description is that of the Shogi Flying Stag.
To fix this, you will need to copy the image below to the biscandine site without renaming it, and then update the HTML in the Chu Seireigi rules description (You can simply copy the HTML from the CVP file, which you can find here).
While I was on the biscandine site, I noticed a few errors in your rule descriptions, as well as an error in the Tori Shogi Jocly implementation.
In the Tori Shogi Jocly implementation, Player A's Left Quail has its movement mirrored from what it should be.
I have attached the corrected images for the movement diagrams below. I also removed the extraneous black lines from the Mini-shogi setup image.
I believe it does not. I only set it up; H.G. will know how that functions. Logically, it should apply to anything but rifle captures (and Ghosts and Reapers [I think you meant Vampire here] would be immune), but I'm not sure how to set that up.
Well, if you mean that the contagion applies to anything but rifle/locust captures, then the diagram has you covered already (this is logically equivalent to it applying only to capture that stop on the victim square). In the current ID setup, the pieces that have rifle/locust captures (Vampire, Ghost, and Hangman) only transform when they stop on the Zombie Pawn's square.
This can be made a little clearer in the Zombie Pawn's description, but that is really simple. Just add the underlined text at the spot it appears in.
Zombie Pawn: Moves (with capture) one space directly or diagonally forward, or moves without capture one space directly behind. Any piece that captures it and stops on its square immediately becomes a Zombie Pawn (but doesn't change color).
What further kinks are with the Vulture?
I guess the Vulture's move description isn't too problematic, except that the ID move does not match up with it. It should be mHnFXnNY.
Zombie Pawn: Moves (with capture) one space directly or diagonally forward, or moves without capture one space directly behind. Any piece that captures it immediately becomes a Zombie Pawn (but doesn't change color).
This piece currently moves like a Copper General in the ID. Did you mean fhKbmW?
Also does the contagious capture only apply when the capturer stops on the Zombie Pawn's square?
There may be other inconsistencies that I have yet to discover. Other than that and the fact that the Vulture's kinks need sorted out, this looks good.
I saw that you copied the updated rules descriptions from the CVP Jocly presets, which is good. I made some fixes to these to improve clarity and remove a few typos I found. I will admit in advance that I am kind of a stickler for consistency, but if you can make those changes that would be great.
For Hectochess and Seireigi you can simply copy the code from the CVP rules files. The only thing you might have to fix is the Lance graph path in the Seireigi file.
For Chu Seireigi the rules description on the biscandine site is much better, but there are still a few discrepancies, and a few pieces are listed twice for some reason. I'd recommend simply copying the source code from the CVP Rules description to fix the text, and copying over the pictures whose links I have attached below.
Corrected Rules HTML
Corrected Movement Diagrams
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/jocly/dist/browser/games/chessbase/res/rules/shogi/graphs/fox.png
I updated the 3d image.
I'll update the svg occasionally, lightburn doesn't work at home (on linux).
I take it that's the program you use for making the SVG?
Also, while I was uploading the Jocly files to the CVP site, I took the opportunity to make the rule description for the Jocly Chu Seireigi preset more accurate. Your version has some discrepancies and doesn't describe everything, thought to be fair I was still finalizing everything then. I can provide you with the files you need if need be.
I did the same for the Seireigi and Hectochess rule descriptions to a far lesser extent, though I am not overly concerned about these two.
I've also been looking for ideas for a lion hawk icon distinct from the griffon icon.
If there were an acceptable candidate, it would probably still take quite some time to to finalize.
If you want something that is nice and easy to make a diagram of via the Musketeer Chess site's board painter, the site should have the first and third icons available for use. Personally I'd recommend the first one, as it is a winged lion. The one used for Chu Seireigi can also work.
Here's a new setup picture for your rules description (refresh browser cache if old one shows up):
I'm working on a new 3d picture as well. I'll post another comment with it when I am done.
P.S. You may need to update the laser cutter SVG, but I am not overly concerned about that. You did include two extra Rooks in it though.
This doesn't explain the fact that in Heian Shogi and Sho Shogi, the Knight has the same movement as in today's Shogi. My pet theory on this and the Lance's forward-only slide is that the Bushido Code has something to do with it. The Bushido code, which says surrender is the worst dishonor, and by proxy shames cowardice, may have been inprinted on the game by making certain pieces forward-only.
I made one last change to Chu Seireigi and Dai Seireigi, renaming the Lion to Lion Hawk to avoid confusion with the Chu Shogi Lion, while also keeping the Bishop + Squirrel move from before, whose Jocly code is shown below.
graph: this.cbDropGraph(geometry, [[-2,0],[-2,-1],[-2,-2],[-1,-2],[0,-2],[1,-2],[2,-2],[2,-1],[2,0],[2,1],[2,2],[1,2],[0,2],[-1,2],[-2,2],[-2,1]],[[1,1],[1,-1],[-1,1],[-1,-1]]),
(Keeping the Lion Hawk's value at 11 is reasonable, as it is basically equal in strength to a Queen, and may sometimes even have a light advantage)
In case you are wondering what a "Lion Hawk" is, I imagine it as a Japanese version of a griffin.
For the new diffusemap, simply use the Tenjiku Shogi Lion Hawk diffusemap.
For the 2D sprite, the best choice in my opinion for this piece may be the sprite two spaces to the left of the "gem" image in this spritesheet, as it resembles a griffin head with cat-like ears, at least to me. (If for some crazy reason you plan on implementing Dai Seireigi in Jocly, I would save the "falcon" image used for the griffin in other Jocly presets for the Flying Falcon or Cloud Eagle).
If you can implement these changes on the biscandine site that would be great.
P.S. Thanks for playing that test game with me. It helped me finalize the Lion Hawk's move.
I'm actually starting to lean back towards the Bishop + Squirrel move for Chu Seireigi and Dai Seireigi, since in my test game of Chusei with you, if the Lion had the KNAD move you would be able to force mate in 3 with just the Lion, and I don't want one piece to steal all the show from the others.
Edit: Looking at the current position you can still force mate in 3, but you need to get more pieces involved.
Thanks. I know you may be a little frustrated, and I apologize if you are, but it is an unfortunate truth of development for my more complex games that updating them can be quite laborious and tedious, especially when several options exist for playing them. As a general rule, I want my games to be well-thought out and high in quality, so I am willing to make changes like this to try and make my games better.
Check your rabbit in daiseireigi. they are promoted by default in stag.
Can you elaborate further on this, please? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
I did check the Running Rabbit in the diagram and the text, and everything seems to be in proper working order, including the text that shows the legal moves of the piece when clicked.
I made one last change to Chu Seireigi, making the Lion move like its Cazaux form (a Chu Shogi Lion that lacks multi-move capabilities). If you could implement that on the biscandine site that would be great.
I'll even make it real simple for you on what you need to do. You'll need to go into your http://chu-seireigi-model.js and look for the Lion definitions (searching for "sh-lion should do"), which looks like this:
66: { name: 'lion-w', aspect: 'sh-lion', graph: this.cbDropGraph(geometry, [[-2,0],[-2,-1],[-2,-2],[-1,-2],[0,-2],[1,-2],[2,-2],[2,-1],[2,0],[2,1],[2,2],[1,2],[0,2],[-1,2],[-2,2],[-2,1]],[[1,1],[1,-1],[-1,1],[-1,-1]]), value: 10, abbrev: 'LN', fenAbbrev: 'N', initial: [{s:1,p:55}], demoted: 67, hand: 18, }, 67: { name: 'lion-b', aspect: 'sh-lion', graph: this.cbDropGraph(geometry, [[-2,0],[-2,-1],[-2,-2],[-1,-2],[0,-2],[1,-2],[2,-2],[2,-1],[2,0],[2,1],[2,2],[1,2],[0,2],[-1,2],[-2,2],[-2,1]],[[1,1],[1,-1],[-1,1],[-1,-1]]), value: 10, abbrev: 'LN', initial: [{s:-1,p:168}], demoted: 66, hand: 18, },
Set the Lions values to 11 and replace the current graph definitions with the following:
graph: this.cbDropGraph(geometry, [[-2,0],[-2,-1],[-2,-2],[-1,-2],[0,-2],[1,-2],[2,-2],[2,-1],[2,0],[2,1],[2,2],[1,2],[0,2],[-1,2],[-2,2],[-2,1],[1,1],[1,-1],[-1,1],[-1,-1],[1,0],[-1,0],[0,1],[0,-1]],[]),
Once that is done, the biscandine Jocly preset should play at least somewhat reasonably.
Thanks. It looks much better.
I've noticed for a while that for the 2D Classic Jocly sprites for Seireigi, all the promoted (red) kanjis being mirrored rather than being rotated 180 degrees like they should be, which looks a bit ugly and may confuse certain players, especially those who are used to single-kanji graphics.
Attached is a spritesheet that fixes this, which I would like uploaded to the biscandine site.
www.chessvariants.com/play/jocly/dist/browser/games/chessbase/res/shogi/seireigi-shogi-sprites.png
I have done it but not sure it is a good idea because if you use "view as player B". It won’t be correctly oriented.
Well, that problem was kind of already baked in to begin with, unless you used a separate piece style like you do with the Shogi Motif pieces on the biscandine site.
The point is to make sure all the 2D Kanji are oriented correctly on the biscandine site. Anyone who has played Shogi long enough would immediately notice something was wrong with the second player's promoted minor pieces if they used the 2D Classic set for Seireigi.
I also updated the seireigi-sprites file one more time so that the promoted Kanjis are all facing the right way.
www.chessvariants.com/play/jocly/dist/browser/games/chessbase/res/shogi/seireigi-shogi-sprites.png
P. S. GIMP is awesome.
Here is my updated version of your spritesheet. (For best results, clear browser cache before downloading)
I also took the opportunity to clean up stray pixels in your other shogi spritesheets.
www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSchuseireigi/jocly-shogi-sprites.zip?nocache=true
I'll send you an updated pictogram spritesheet that you can use. Currently, the pictogram images still have the Kanji for the Kings since they are pulling from those locations.
It not clear to me, when there's an apostrophe, it's the general of jade that corresponds to the blacks, right?
In kanji sets, the player that moves first always has the King with the extra stroke. And it is true that the player who moves first is called Black (or Sente) in Shogi. It's just that in Jocly and the Mnemonic sets by H. G. Muller, the player that moves first has the white piece images by convention to make it easier for chess players.
You should only have to swap the King kanjis in the 2D Classic Seireigi sprites.
For the 3D pieces its as simple as swapping "sh-king" and "sh-jade" in the 3D piece definitions in the *-view.js files, so no problem there.
P.S. What I said above also applies to the Shogi Jocly implementations that use the King kanji on the biscandine site.
P.S.S. Also you have two extra rooks in your laser cutter SVG.
Thanks.
Out of curiosity, what program did you use to make the Seireigi Jocly sprites?
I am trying to fix a visual bug involving the 2d Kanji kings in Seireigi's implementation. The King with the extra stroke in the 2D Classic set is used for the player that moves second, when it should be used for the player that moves first.
That's perfect.
I noticed a bug in the Hectochess implementation. When castling, the starting squares of the Champions and queenside Knights (b2/b9, c2/c9, and i2/i9) are not being checked to see if a piece is occupying them or not, allowing castling when it should not be possible to do so.
I notice that Lev nominated Seireigi, so in addition to my nomination of its larger cousin (Dai Seireigi) I'll throw in a second for Seireigi for future features.
You must really like Dai Seireigi...I'm honestly quite surprised. Sure, I consider the Seireigi family my best set of works so far, but I didn't think anyone would be so quick to nominate Dai Seireigi. If anything, I thought Chu Seireigi would be nominated faster (second to normal Seireigi of course). That being said, I can definitely see the appeal, with the homages to the large historical Shogi variants and all.
Note to (other) Editors: While Dai Seireigi hasn't been played in its current, final form on Game Courier yet, it does have a recorded history of development versions being played on Game Courier. Whether this would make it eligible to be featured is up for debate.
I second Glinski's Hexagonal Chess. It is the textbook example of a hexagonal chess variant. If you want to learn how to play a hexagonal chess game, Glinski's Hexagonal Chess is a great place to start.
Looks like it. I have uploaded the new version to the site and have adapted them so the implementation will work properly with the CVP files.
Looks good, save for a few errors:
---------------------
Setup Errors
---------------------
White Kirin and Phoenix are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup
Black King and Great Elephant are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup
---------------------
Promotion/Drop Errors
---------------------
Lance, Running Rabbit, Knight, Gold General, and Great Elephant are currently allowed to promote immediately if they are dropped into the promotion zone (this should not be the case)
Both Pawns in the hand spaces can be selected when multiple Pawns are in the hand)
Since this comment is for a page that has not been published yet, you must be signed in to read it.
Your current setup for this game looks way better, but I did notice a few errors were made while making the new version. I also noticed a bug in the Hectochess implementation.
---------------------
Chu Seireigi Setup Errors
---------------------
White Kirin and Phoenix are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup
Black King and Great Elephant are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup
---------------------
Chu Seireigi Promotion/Drop Errors
---------------------
Pawn, Lance, Running Rabbit, Knight, Gold General, and Great Elephant are currently allowed to promote immediately if they are dropped into the promotion zone (this should not be the case)
White Copper General is put in same place as Black Lion in hand spaces, resulting in the hand space setup looking asymmetrical (White Copper General should be placed between the Great Elephant and Running Wolf)
(Also, because of this bug, a "King" may sometimes appear in current hand space of extra White Copper Generals/Black Lions for some reason...though this thankfully doesn't affect anything)
---------------------
Hectochess Castling Error
---------------------
When attempting to castle, the Champion's starting squares (b2/b9 and i2/i9) and queenside Knight starting squares (c2/c9) are not checked to see whether a piece is occupying them or not.
Thanks.
Can you also do the same for normal Seireigi? It has the same problem with its 3d Kanji pieces.
For some reason, the 3d graphics for Seireigi and Chu Seireigi are only showing as blank Shogi pieces, and in the case of certain Chu Seireigi pieces, not showing at all. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Also, I noticed a bug in the Hectochess file, where, when castling, the Champion starting square is not checked to see if a piece is there or not.
I've uploaded all the missing pictures.
For some reason, it cannot find the description even though the path to that file is correct, but I'm not really concerned about that.
I am more concerned about the fact that the Seireigi implementation (/play/jocly/seireigi) is not showing the Kanji in the 3D Classic style.
Thanks.
Looks like everything works properly.
Can you send me the updated files for Seireigi and Chu Seireigi (I have already taken care of Hectochess)?
Here are the errors I didn't find before or are new:
Incorrect 3d Kanji Readings (all should be colored red)
- Promoted Lance (should say 奔虎)
- Promoted Gold General (should say 大象)
- Promoted Kirin (should say 角行)
- Promoted Phoenix (should say 飛車)
Hectochess now works, albeit with a few sprites missing. I just need to upload the sprites and diffusemaps for the Chanpion and Wizard.
Edit: Also, Hectochess doesn't have the 3d Queen, Marshall, and Cardinal for some reason...
I saw you added the 3d Kanjis back to Chu Seireigi. I went through and tested everything, and here are the errors I found
Incorrect 3d Kanji Readings
- Unpromoted Great Leopard (should say 大豹)
- Promoted Knight (should say 天馬)
- Promoted Silver (should say 走狼)
Other
- Promoted Lance, Gold seem to crash/softlock the game
- Promoted Copper General (大豹), Promoted Running Wolf (奔猪) assets doesn't load
- Promoted Kirin (角行), Promoted Phoenix (飛車) indistinguishable from unpromoted counterparts (kanji should be colored red)
P.S.
I was surprised that they didn't have the same movements. I wondered whether a different adjective might be better to distinguish them: e.g. cunning fox and vigilant rabbit, Same for the whale with chu shogi.
That was because I found the Wa Running Rabbit to be too similar to the Lance, and knew that it would add too much defense after testing with the Old Kite. So I gave the Running Rabbit the ranging moves from its Taikyoku counterpart while omitting the stepping moves. The reason it has the same name as the Wa Running Rabbit is because it is one of only two Taikyoku pieces to be a rabbit, and I thought the running kanji fit better. As for the whale, its backward bias was a problem, so I replaced that move with the current one.
You also have to add a line to /play/jocly/dist/browser/jocly-allgames.js to make Jocly notice the files that you placed in /play/jocly/dist/browser/games/chessbase/.
I've done that. It shows up on the Other Jocly games panel, but when I try to load it, it doesn't work. I get the following error:
hectochess-model.js:257 Uncaught (in promise) TypeError: JocGame.LetsTwist is not a function
at ZobristInit (hectochess-model.js:257:20)
at Model.Game.InitGame (hectochess-model.js:354:3)
at JocGame.GameInitGame (jocly.game.js:3:7385)
at JocGame.Init (jocly.game.js:3:1572)
at e (jocly.core.js:1:1233)
at eval (jocly.core.js:1:2511)
I have uploaded François Houdebert's files for the Hectochess implementation to the site. I guess now it's just a matter of waiting for the server cache to clear, unless I need to do something else when uploadnig a new Jocly game to the site.
Much better.
The only improvements I can think of are reintroducing the 3d pieces, naming the game Chu Seireigi instead of Chu Seireigi Shogi (for the same reasons as with normal Seireigi), and maybe having the hand spaces all colored solid brown. But for the latter the wood is colored similarly enough that it doesn't really matter whether you do it or not.
Also, could you update that SVG for the laser cutter? I might want to make a plywood set in the future. But for now, the cutouts I made will do.
The forced promotion issue is fixed for White's forward-only pieces (Pawn, Lance, Ram's-Head Soldier, Running Rabbit, Knight, Flying Swallow) but not for Black's.
I actually found a better replacement for the Old Kite with the Running Rabbit (fBfR).
Thankfully, this is the last time I will need to make any changes.
Here are all the errors I found in your draft:
Piece Movement/Promotion/Drop Errors
Old Kite should be replaced with Running Rabbit, which slides in any forward direction (fBfR)
For Pawn, Lance, Ram's-Head Soldier, Running Rabbit (currently Old Kite), Knight, Flying Swallow, White's promotion is always forced, while Black's promotion is never forced
When captured, White Kirin is not being placed in Black's hand
Board Setup Errors
White King and White Great Elephant are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup.
Other
The grid seems a little off, but you probably already knew that.
Here's a link to the jocly seireigi and hectochess implementations. It would require to code evaluation function to improve the level of the engine which still needs to be done, and will probably require some expertise. Personally, I don't mind the computer being beatable.
The link is broken, it seems... Actually, do include the Chu Seireigi implementation. Testing with it will be valuable.
In general, I try to associate a visual with a movement whatever the game in jocly. I don't know if it's the same for everyone, but I have to adapt a lot when the movements of a known piece change. That's why I used the trident that had been envisaged for the whale in chu shogi. I realized that the movement differed from that of the whale in chu shogi when I was making the documentation, and it seemed preferable to me to avoid confusion.
Okay, makes sense.
It would be interesting to add mnemomic sprites as an alternative. I don't know if you'd be interested in making such a file.
Here's an SVG seireigi set if you want to test the creation of a physical game. Example in plywood (compact / cheap and quick to make but rather simple), the color code for laser cutter is red/cutting, blue engraving recto, yellow engraving verso.
Maybe, once I finalize everything.
I am currently testing the KNAD move for the Lion. Unfortunately, I am no carpenter, but your set looks good (though you did forget the Coppers in the plywood example.)
Since this comment is for a page that has not been published yet, you must be signed in to read it.
Looks like you fixed everything, save for the hand spaces of course, but I won't bother you on that too much until you are ready to test the solution.
I would at least like the ones for Hectochess and Seireigi. Ideally, the files should be placed in such a way so that I know which files go where.
You may include Chu Seireigi if you wish, but I am doing one last update to make it easier to defend against a Lion:
- Renaming Prancing Stag to Running Rabbit (fBfR), which promotes to Prancing Stag (fBsRvW)
- Strong Bear moving the same as Chu Shogi Drunk Elephant
I had your Jocly implementation play out several games, and even though it played rather poorly (for obvious reasons), it was clear that there needed to be more defense.
P. S. I'm surprised you changed the Whale's symbol to a trident. I guess it makes sense if you take into account Greek mythology. I think the whale tail symbol you used before would look more accurate, but it really comes down to personal preference here.
Thanks. Hopefully we can also upload your implementations of Hectochess and Seireigi to the site soon.
I have tested the new moves and will update you on bugs to be fixed. Here are the errors I found as of the writing of this comment.
-------------------------------
Piece Movement/Promotion Errors
-------------------------------
Whale is missing its backward slide
White Golden Bird is missing its sideways orthogonal leaps
For some reason Flying Swallows that are dropped from the hand (not the ones present initially) have their move reversed
-------------------------------
As for the trouble with the hand spaces, maybe ask H. G. Muller about that? He is the one who made the original model if I remember correctly. It shouldn't be that hard for him to figure something out.
As far as I can tell, you should only need a second column of hand spaces on each side, but of course, it's probably not as simple as I am making it out to be.
I saw your Jocly implementation for Chu Seireigi. It works much better than it used to.
I went through and tested everything, and here is a comprehensive list of all known errors that I found:
-------------------------------
Piece Movement/Promotion Errors
-------------------------------
Ram's-Head Soldier and Prancing Stag are not forced to promote when reaching the last rank (these pieces must promote on last rank)
Strong Bear (Starting and Promoted) still has its old move (should move one square diagonally or sideways)
Whale is missing its forward orthogonal step
Flying Swallow is not forced to promote when reaching the last two ranks (this piece must promote on last two ranks)
White Golden Bird is missing its sideways orthogonal leaps, Black Golden Bird is missing its (1,-2) leap from White's perspective
Kirin promotes to Lion (should promote to Bishop) and White Kirin moves has extra (2,2) leap in all directions (should move as in Chu Shogi)
Phoenix promotes to Queen (should promote to Rook)
-------------------------------
Board Setup Errors
-------------------------------
There currently aren't enough spaces in the hand to accommodate all the droppable piece types (there are 19 in total). You will need a second column of hand spaces on each side to account for this.
Black Running Leopard and Black Running Wolf are swapped from where they should be in the initial setup.
As far as I can tell, the only typo I made was not changing Great Stag to Treacherous Fox in the move description.
They are stored in
/home/chessvariants/public_html/play/pbm/sets/
Thanks.
Do you know how to use SCP or SFTP?
Do you still have the passwords I sent you by email?
I have not used either SCP or SFTP before, but I should be able to figure out how to use WinSCP.
I still have the passwords you sent me. I figured out pretty quickly that it was best to save the email.
Edit: I have updated the set files, and now know the basics for uploading via WinSCP.
Since I am an editor now, I should be able to update my set files for the Seireigi games myself (I am in the process of updating the larger games for the final time).
However, I am not sure where these set files are stored, nor am I sure how to upload the new versions to the site. Any help for future uploads would be greatly appreciated.
For now, here is the .zip file with the up-to-date files:
/membergraphics/MSchuseireigi/seireigi-graphics-set-files-gc-final.zip
As you've seen I'm not a very good player.
Well, at least you put up a decent fight.
Generally, the best practice for assigning names to pieces is to make them easy to pronounce (or fun to say, as in bifferbubberz).
So Sloppy Knight would work better.
Resegnation is a fact of life that cannot be prevented by any rules. The best rules can do is put a sanction on doing it, and the worst imaginable sanction is an individual game is that you would lose. Which is exactly the idea, and thus has zero value as a deterrent. You will have to find a better solution for when one of the palyers forfeits (e.g. loses on time because he simply walked away).
I have edited the resignation rule to remove the constraint on resignation.
Resegnation is a fact of life that cannot be prevented by any rules. The best rules can do is put a sanction on doing it, and the worst imaginable sanction is an individual game is that you would lose. Which is exactly the idea, and thus has zero value as a deterrent. You will have to find a better solution for when one of the palyers forfeits (e.g. loses on time because he simply walked away).
I have edited the resignation rule to remove the constraint on resignation.
This sounds like a neat idea, but I struggle to make sense of the board directions even with the diagram showing where the orthogonals and diagonals are.
Resignation is not allowed if one of the opponents (or both of them) doesn’t accept it.
This seems rather arbitrary.
Otherwise, the page is good enough to be approved.
I guess the ASCII diagrams aren't terrible. The interactive diagram helps a lot.
I am mostly referring to the physical game.
My reasoning is that if the two sides are indistinguishable, or there is no other way to tell which checkers have made a complete tour, then a player could easily mistake a checker which made a complete tour for one that had not and bring said checker back into the game.
In that case, the two sided checkers would still be helpful, as they tell you which checkers are out of the game, by having the checkers that have completed the tour have one side up, and all other checkers having the other side up.
I have moved the standard piece values to the Notes option as an additional variant to make it clearer which value set you are using.
red square. The checker pieces have to make a complete tour of the board. Their
I have removed the underlined sentence, as it doesn't really say anything.
- At least four checker pieces per player make a complete tour
I probably should have touched on this earlier, but I think this rule seems like another random addition. However, I do think it can work with the right tweaks.
First, the checkers should ideally have two sides, like with some checker sets that use a star for a Checker King. That way, you can flip the checker (or "promote" it, so to speak) when it makes a complete tour around the board.
Second, if a promoted checker gets captured, it would make more sense to keep it promoted, since otherwise, this condition is too unlikely to happen.
This is certainly a novel idea. However, I would like to throw in a few important points:
Each player has a complete set of Chess pieces and seven checkers, or pegs.
- No more than 5 checker pieces per player are allowed on the board at the same time.
If no more than 5 checker pieces can be on the board at the same time, then just have the players start with 5 checker pieces each.This eliminates the need for the 5-checker limit in the first place.
Players will get an extra point if the checker piece that is to be moved stands on a row/column in which that player has superiority.
The superiority of a row/column is determined by adding together the value all chess pieces of the same colour and compare it to the enemy pieces. If the points ratio is at least 50% + 1 that player controls that row/column. In this case, the standard chess values are used.
This rule seems to be a random addition, and appears to have little impact on the game, except for adding an extra bit of distance to a checker's move. It seems to be a lot of effort to calculate something that wouldn't impact the game all that much. Plus, I don't imagine many Chess players enjoy doing math.
Checker pieces, when captured by other checker pieces, will move to the starting position. If that square is already occupied they will enter the game on the next turn.
Do you mean that they will enter the game as soon as their red square is not occupied by a friendly checker if one is available? This would line up with what you say in the Rules section.
What happened to the Knights and Rooks (more accurately their Shatranj equivalents)? Those were in the original, not the Dabbabah or Wazir.
Regardless, the page is good enough to be approved.
This page would greatly benefit from having a setup image, as well as actual diagrams in place of the ASCII Art. Here are some tools to help with that:
Diagram Designer for Chessvariants.com
H. G. Muller's Interactive Diagrams (Has the bonus of being able to move the pieces)
ASCII Art is considered outdated by most.
Is the double/triple move of the back row of Pawns also subject to en passant capture?
What happens in mutual stalemate, where a player makes a move that leaves both sides unable to move?
Both Berolina and Chinese Pawns are omnidirectional Pawns. They move orthogonally (one square only) but capture diagonally.
If these two Pawn types are essentially the same, you might as well replace both with Stewards, which have the same move (move without capturing one square orthogonally, capture one square diagonally).
The Kings can not move into check or be checkmated.
Does that last part (or be checkmated) mean that other pieces cannot put the King in check?
Guards move one square orthogonally and diagonally in any direction. .
I assume here you mean "Guards move one square in any orthogonal or diagonal direction, akin to a non-royal King."
Let's not forget about betzaNewer.js (the one with the experimental Shogi promotion system).
It would be really nice if you could deselect a piece that you have just selected in the holdings. Currently this is not possible without selecting another piece in the holdings or dropping the selected piece on the board.
Much better.
However, I did notice a bug that causes the promotion choices to replace pieces on the squares they are shown on if you select something other than a promotion choice.
Replication Example: Have a Rook General capture the opposing Rook General, and then when the promotion options show up click on any occupied space other than the highlighted squares.
Hmm...I think simply showing the promotion options with a highlighted background is better. The plus and minus don't really tell me what my choices are (they are basically covering up the images), but do better at showing that a promotion option exists.
Personally, I'd omit the markers and highlight the background with the same color that is used for Chess-style promotions (#8080FF), while also showing instructions at the top (e.g. "Click icon of piece of choice").
Perhaps the color for promotion highlights could even be set with a parameter (e.g. promoHighlight=#8080FF) in case the selected board shades are too similar to the default color.
P.S. Also, it would be really nice to be able to deselect a piece in the holdings like you can with pieces on the board. Currently, this is not possible.
I think the new system is much better, but some instructions at the top would also help (e.g. "Click on icon of piece of choice" for the current system).
It may also help to have a unique highlight color for the promotions in the current system, such as magenta or the blue you use for Chess-style promotions.
What if you turned the one bishop into an Anglican Bishop, which moves as a Bishop or moves without capturing one step orthogonally? This allows it to reach all squares on the board while keeping its attacking range the same.
The Review new submissions seems to have losts its style sheet for the text fonts. All the last action text has the same color.
Pieces can be blocked from reaching a certain square, don't they?
Being blocked doesn't necessarily mean that a piece is unable to reach a square.
Now that I think about it, I guess the inability to reach a square part refers to the predators, and not the moving piece.
- If these pieces still have natural predators on the board but they are unable to reach these red squares
It feels like there is something missing here.
You haven't turned off all the changes though (transparent menu background). May I suggest you work on this in the .org site to not affect users until you're ready with the changes?
Yeah, the current transparent background for the top menus looks terrible. Doing these tests on the .org site would be way better.
Challenge accepted.
I have decided to rename the Free Pup to Whale, to include a marine animal and balance out the number of dog and cat piece types (bears are dog-like).
This change also applies to Dai Seireigi.
@Adam: it is strange to say "Heavy Shako is a 100 square variant inspired by Adam DeWitt's Yangsi." I think this game was more inspired by Shako, as the initial setup and the name of the game say.
A link to Shako would be nice to have here.
Eric Silverman explicitly said in this comment that this game was at least partially inspired by Yangsi. I have included a link to Shako.
It would be nice if I could update the description of the game on the site, but I can't.
For the GC, would it be possible to use the wildebeest icon, and not the ram icon, for the Buffalo. This would be consistent with other games that use this piece and also with the page presenting Heavy Shako itself.
Unfortunately not for this page's diagram of the game, as the set that is being used does not have a Wildebeest icon. However, I could rig a custom set for the preset, which I have done successfully.
Whoopsie.
Should be fixed now.
I think the best answer to this whole debate is that there is no right or wrong answer as to whether color-based pictograms or orientation-based kanji are better for Shogi variants.
However, I would never EVER recommend using orientation-based pictograms, unless they either:
- all have some universal defining feature that makes it easier to tell each side apart, like the wedge shape with the kanji Shogi sets.
- are mnemonic representations of the piece moves and are also color-based, like with the mnemonic Shogi variant sets.
96 comments displayed
Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.
This looks good.
The Centurions are an interesting idea. The 1d shogis have tried this kind of idea before with a single forward-only King.
If it turns out there are too many Centurions, you can always reduce the number of Centurions to two. However, the winning King promotion likely takes care of that, at least if it is an immediate win.