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No, I don't think so. 'No piece, neither friend nor foe, will dare venture upon an an ichorous square'
Is it legal to push a piece from an ichorous square to another ichorous square?
'Mobile pieces within the range of an allied Ghast are not compelled to move, but when they do move they must flee.' Wait...does the Go Away's scream count as a movement? If a Go Away is on a square in the range of a friendly Ghast, is it permitted to scream? I assume that the answer is 'yes,' since the example game includes a portion in which an Alabaster Go Away screams while adjacent to an Alabaster Ghast. (I'm interested in clarifying all these rules, since I'm trying to code this game in time for Halloween.)
Instead of 'Multiple Occupancy', why not use 'Crowdness' to indicate the status of multiple pieces on the same square? That sounds better and easier. Also I think, if one wants to rewrite the rule for readability, what he needs is to modify the order to introduce the pieces and statuses. For example: 1. Humans, starting at the normal pawn squares, moves 1 square without capture in 5 directions, namely 1 forward one, 2 diagonally forward ones, and 2 sideways ones. Upon arriving at the 8th rank promotes to Zombies, which are very strong. Just remember the name for now. 2. Go Aways, starting at the normal bishop squares, jumps 2 rookwise or moves 1 diagonally. Instead of moving, may scream, which push adjacent things away. Pushing things onto non-empty squares results in crowded ones. Living things that find themselves in a crowd are compelled to move out. Compulsions: the status in which ... Just like that. I don't have time to write a full version, just want anyone else to do it.
While re-visiting the comments for this game, I realized that I had not given it a rating. So now I correct that oversight. I've finally accepted that this game will be extremely difficult to code. So for the sake of my own sanity I have given up such an attempt. But it has been fun trying. Like hitting myself with a hammer. :) This is not to say that it will not eventually be coded. I just realize that it will probably need its own dedicated program to accomplish this. And such a project will be merely a labor of love(or obsession) because there will probably never be sufficient monetary reward to cover this effort. If anyone decides to make such an attempt, they have my sympathy. ;-)
Raplh Betza posted this game after I stopped haunting the Chess Variant Pages around 2000, and so I didn't become aware of it until recently. And having become aware of it, I am (like some of the previous posters) intrigued by the extreme challenge (apparently yet unmet) of writing a ZRF for it. In response to Robert Price's post of 2004-01-17, it seems to me that the nonsimultaneous shout of the Go Away is actually a more interesting problem than multiple occupancy. As far as I know, Mr. Price's proposal to treat this as a 3-dimensional game with visually overlapping cells is, although a pain to code, the appropriate solution for Zillions. However, I believe it is infeasible to code a Go Away shout as a single Zillions move. As Mr. Price implies, using add-partial to code a shout as a series of all legal submoves is likely to result in a very weak computer opponent, because Zillions will be able to look ahead only a very short distance when a complicated shout is available. Nonetheless, I think you have to do just that. The reason why the shout is so troublesome is that in the worst case, a Go Away can be surrounded by a large number of pieces, including both Basilisks. As I understand it, the order in which a Go Away pushes pieces does not matter unless it pushes Basilisks; but if does push Basilisks, then it matters which pieces are pushed before and which after each Basilisk. That means that when a Go Away is surrounding by n non-Basilisk pieces subject to petrification (that is, n pieces that are not Basilisks, and not statues or otherwise immune to the Basilisk's glare), the number of distinct moves a Go Away can make is equal to the number of ways to partition a set into b + 1 parts, where b is the number of Basilisks among the n pieces. For a large n (say, 8 or so, but multiple occupancy can result in an even larger n than 8), this is a big enough number for one Basilisk (256 for n = 8), and an even bigger one for two (6561 for n = 8). Certainly the number could be big enough that the menu of move choices Zillions would display for a single-move Go Away shout would be substantially larger than the average computer screen. I know such menus are broken into multiple columns when longer than the height of the screen, but a big shout could easily fill the entire width of the screen with such columns, and still not be done. What happens then? I've never seen a program display such a long list of choices, but my experience with Microsoft products leads to me fear that Windows does not handle the situation gracefully. However, I think there is a solution involving add-partial that is near optimal. Code it as follows: first move all the non-Basilisk petrification-immune pieces simultaneously, and then move each of the remaining pieces in a partial move. I think the result in terms of lookahead difficulty is the same for Zillions as for a single-move shout, but the menus should be manageable for a human player. If someone who understands the implications of the rules of Nemoroth better than I do figures out that there is actually a tight enough constraint on the number of nonpetrifiable pieces that can be adjacent to a Go Away that the unitary Go Away move actually is feasible, I'd welcome the news. In any case, Nemoroth is an extremely deep game, much more so than any other pure strategy game I know of, and computers are likely to play it very badly for the foreseeable future. An alternative to implementing the full rules might be to nerf the Go Away, and code its shout as simultaneous (move all the pieces first, and only then calculate the Basilisks' effects). This would not really be Nemoroth, of course; it would be a less deep variant (you might call it Nemoroth Lite), but computers might play it better. As an aside, I'm grateful for John Lawson's comment of 2008-10-30, where he says it's difficult to play Nemoroth legally. When I first read the rules, I thought, there's no way I'd be able to figure out what was a legal move in this game without a computer to help me. I'm glad it's not just my own thickheadedness.
Nemoroth is very difficult to play legally. I think every game Ben and I played, there were illegal moves that had to be taken back, usually involving the effects of the Ghast. You may also note that no one ever posted a Nemoroth variant. I toyed with one based on bodily functions, but it was untested, and I am as far from Ralph Betza as can be. I never posted it, as a 'humor' piece, because it would have violated the CVP's G rating. (For those not familiar with the US movie ratings, a G rated film has no sex, no violence, and is considered suitable for very young children.)
The other half of Nemeroth, and the more complete Rules-set, for Halloween. John Lawson and Ben Good played number of recorded games, but there is no Preset for Nemeroth's (over)-complicated rules.
Nemeroth is about the most complicated Chess game made. What others are as complex in Rules, or Mutators? We have several specifically in mind to mention in follow-up by February. Nemeroth redeems itself in fascinating theme and Betza's legendary style. To play Nemeroth, as has actually been done by John Lawson and Ben Good (See sample games' articles), overseen by Betza himself, is another story. Playing Nemeroth requires activation of as many as 40 Mutators at once, in first approximation. So many Mutators activated have bearing on our '91.5 x 10^12...' Comments, where we develop CV Rules-sets mounting in number towards equality with number of atoms in Earth, the Solar System, eventually the Universe. Anyone can make up a CV in few minutes, as Pritchard points out in 'ECV', but some are far better than others. Few individuals have knack of Betza; the worst of the others mostly just rearrange known quantities, then often relying on self-promotion or outspokenness. Best CVs of all may be one-time inspirations of creative persons not bent on proliferation or willful designs for their own sake. Even Betza's very best may have been Chess-Unequal-Armies early on(1980). One exception in a great one is Rococo that they seemed just to work on for long time until getting it right. I invented and finished(as it turned out) Falcon Chess in an hour talking to friend Vera Cole, but now 15 years after December 1992, still fine-tune priority of choices for the most desirable starting arrays. Can complicated CVs actually be played strategically? We restrict Mutators activated and interacting to 32 in number in the cumulative tallies at '91.5 Trillion...' Necessary follow-up Comments for both articles, Nemeroth and 'Falcon 91.5 Trillion...', will show this great Nemeroth itself more complex than any of ours counted there. In fact, no one has analyzed fine Nemeroth fully by piece-types, power density, and its triple win conditions, as we intend full Game Design Analysis. Also, questions (Comments) by Ingrid Lael on the compulsion to flee 'Ghasts', and the other Commenter's only this month are yet unanswered.
A question? Can a go away push pieces off the board? If not what would happen if a go away on g8 used it's special move on a piece on h8?
:((((((((( Oh...how terrible, really.... Well, I guess I'll just read the rules more carefully or 'fill in the holes' myself in order to play it. Terrible, terrible news.... Thanks for your time. Bye... ...Ingrid
The 2002-06-30 Comment by 'gnohmon' is the last time Ralph Betza visited this page. Sad to say, there are hundreds of forgotten games on this web site. But if any game can 'come back from the dead', it would be Nemoroth!
Hi, me again... I've got just one more question (for the moment at least), it regards Ghasts and the compulsion to flee them. Let me see if I got it right. Consider this 'diagram': +---+---+---+---+---+ | 5 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 5 | +---+---+---+---+---+ | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 4 | +---+---+---+---+---+ | 3 | 1 | G | 1 | 3 | +---+---+---+---+---+ | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 4 | +---+---+---+---+---+ | 5 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 5 | +---+---+---+---+---+ Whilst fleeing the Ghast, a piece in any of the numbered squares can only move to a higher-numbered one, right? Now, suppose this particular piece is a rider (a Wounded Fiend actually, since Zombies fear not the hideous Ghast), can it approach the Ghast (by riding through a lower-numbered square) if it ends its move past the Ghast's influence? or should it ride in the direction indicated by higher-numbered squares only? (for example: can a Wounded Fiend in a '2' square ride horizontally through the '1' square ending its move past the '4' square, or must he flee in the opposite direction?) Thanks in advance for your time. Cheers... ...Ingrid. PS: I hope this 'thread'/game/whatever (I dunno how to call a series of follow-ups on comments) is not dead but just a bit dated, I'd really love to play this game!!
Hi there!, first off, GREAT game, tremendous depth...
Anyway, just a couple of questions that came to my mind while reading the rules for the 10th time (I probably know them by hard now, I just love reading them =P):
1) Suppose we've got a mummy and a statue in the same square (possible, thanks to the marbelous deeds of a Go Away/Banshee/Dread), now if pushed once more, they'll travel toghether, right? (i guess the same would happen with any combinations of contents being pushed as a matter of fact).
2) Well, that was pretty silly, but how about this one: suppose there's a Leaf Pile engulfing them (or whatever else you care for it to engulf) and a Go Away/Banshee/Dread pushes, will the engulfed piece be pushed as well? or is it just the Leaf Pile that gets pushed leaving behind the engulfed pieces unharmed?
3) Now that I'm at it, about engulfing, by it you mean that the 'engulfed' pieces cannot move, right? It's kind of logical since they are 'removed' from the board and only the Leaf Pile remains.
4) Any ideas as to how many different statues could there be? I mean, a petrified Go Away/Banshee/Dread is pretty much like a petrified Human for that matter (I think I read a comment addressing the same issue).
5) Any ideas as for how many pieces (maximun amount) can there be in a single position? Something like an Upper bound...?
OK, that's pretty much it, great game!
cheers!
This actully has more comments than the offical FIDE rules of chess
Robert, Roberto and I have been in e-mail discussion about the implementation of this game. He has volunteered for the graphics. I have worked up a number of ideas on the handling of the code. There being several ways to approach each of the various conditions in this game. We should establish a discussion group specific for individuals interested in participating in this project. It would need to be a location which allows the posting of data files, so participants can easily exchange the lengthy examples of coding which will become part of this implementation.
I would love to help in coding Nemoroth in Zillions, just as soon as I can
convince myself that it's possible at all.
<p>
As I understand it, piece <i>attributes</i> can not change the
<i>appearance</i> of a piece, so a petrified Basilisk, for example, must
be implemented as a different piece-<i>type</i> from an ordinary Basilisk
(if you want them to look different), even though their non-voluntary
behaviors are identical.
<p>
A far greater concern is multiple-occupancy. The usual approach is to
declare a piece-type for every <i>combination</i> of pieces that may
coexist on a space. Add to that the need to distinguish between petrified
and fleshy, friendly and enemy (because such strange bedfellows may indeed
come to share a space). And realize that pile-ups of more than two may
easily arise... All of a sudden, Octi's library of 256 piece-types (<a href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/games/octi.html'>http://www.zillions-of-games.com/games/octi.html</a>) is looking downright trivial by
comparison.
<p>
From the game-logic standpoint, I intend to investigate the possibility
of treating each of the 64 spaces similarly to a <i>prison</i> in the ZRF
for Shogi. From the graphical standpoint, we can't afford simply to
divide each square into a 3x3 grid of positions as I did for <a
href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/games/edgechess.html'>Edge
Chess</a>, or people will need a magnifying glass to see the great
graphics someone's going to make for the pieces. Instead, the cells of my
prison will overlap, and with a well-defined order of precedence. I
learned from <a
href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/games/platformchess.html'>Platform
Chess</a> that the later-defined space will have its contents drawn before
a sooner-defined space. This works perfectly. The front cell of the
prison will dominate most of each space, with four more behind it kind of
peeking in from the corners. Clicking-and-dragging a piece from the
prison works as expected; if you grab a pixel that belongs to two spaces,
Zillions assumes you mean the one it drew out in front. So if you want to
move your Human that someone's gone and pushed a Basilisk statue onto, you
can click on the visible portion of his puny form and command him, exactly
as if two pieces really were present on the same space at the same time.
<P>
<b>Anyway,</b> multiple occupancy is what struck me as the big difficulty.
Besides that, the non-simultaneous nature of the Go Away shout may not be
pretty. One solution is to present a big pop-up menu consisting of all
possible orders in which to push the victims (or only those which are
substantially different due to the presence of basilisks). I would hate
to have to use one move per push, because that's the sort of thing that
weakens the computer opponent.
<p>
The evaporation of ichor is something that will just have to be managed by
a ?Moderator who is programmed to scan the board and decrement all the
ichor-plies by one. This raises another point... in order for ichor to be
visible, it has to be a piece-type. I could do that by making a position
behind each prison, where the ichor would sit. If the graphics designer
wants to make ten different pictures of ichor, that's great, because each
ply of ichor is going to be a different piece-type, and when the board is
covered in broad sweeps of the stuff, the players are entitled to know
which ichor is ickier.
<p>
Compulsion is tough to describe - it's slightly more complicated than the
move-priority construct which in Checkers requires you to jump if able.
But it is definitely doable. A piece is never compelled to make any
<i>particular</i> move, only to make a <i>legal</i> one, provided the
'legal' constraint handles the details like preventing a piece within 2 of
a Ghast from moving-without-fleeing. (note the beauty in Nemoroth on this
point: The same *legality* constraint appies whether the Ghast is friendly
or enemy; the only difference is that a piece within range of an <i>enemy</i>
Ghast is compelled during its move generation.) Imposing move-priority and
also (somehow) verifying that either a compelled piece was moved, or no
compelled piece remains (after the immediate effects of the move have
happened) comes very close to fitting the bill.
<p>
This sounds like an extraordinary game, and it certainly was presented in a marvelous way.
Larry, what is the state of the code for Nemoroth?. May I help?. I can try the graphics, but if so, I need know some details of the programming. I´m not sure the best way to manage the graphics of multiple-ocuppied squares, but I have some ideas about. One question: Why don´t become a member of TCVP?. You are part of the Chess Variants fans community, and of the kind of people that we ever need here. WELCOME!.
I can't code, but I have actually played some games of Nemoroth, would be glad to help playtest when the time comes.
You seem to be a very good programmer using Zillions, and I think you are clearly better than me in this kind of work, so my help to you in coding may be close to inutile. But I can offer high-quality (?. Subjective opinion) graphics for pieces and boards, and certainly, a lot of work play-testing this great and unconventional game!
Yay! I loved this game when I read about it! (thought I've never had played it). Sadly, I can't code to save my own life, so there's not much help I can offer
A while back I started working on a ZRF for this game. But quickly got bogged down in all the conditionals. So I shelved it until my brain stopped hurting. I am now considering picking up where I left off. And I would welcome any assistance that the enthusiasts of this game can offer. Contributions can be not only in coding but also graphics and sounds. This one will definitely need play-testers, so there's work for all.
Yes I like the name 'Dread', and it has a unique initial for notation purposes - there is no other piece whose name begins with D. So the Wail of the Banshee shall be heard no more in the land.
Paul wrote that he wanted a name for the 'Go Away' which fitted this theme. May I suggest 'Dread'. This refers to a creature which causes intense fear in its victim. If you've ever felt fear without cause, there might have been a 'Dread' nearby. As it approachs, it will cause the victim to flee. Its scream would do the same. There have been many descriptions of this creature, but no-one is actually supposed to have seen it. Since all that do have perished.
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One of the major problems that I find in coding this game is calculating all possible moves for a Go Away when it is adjacent to one or both Basilisks. Obviously, a computer program can't loop through all 40320 possibilities and check each one! Does anyone have any suggestions for optimizations?