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Of course, there is the issue that on a larger board, since leapers are
weakened, most of these pieces are probably not quite Rook-level anymore.
One piece I do want to try in a larger variant someday is the NH (Knight
+ (3,0) leaper), since the H portion of the move would allow it to move
around a 10x10 board slightly faster than a Knight moves around an 8x8 board.
Okay, but I don't believe that the Chancellor is worth less than the Q. The midgame forking power of a piece that moves in 12 directions is quite amazing, the Chancellor has exceptional ability to save an inferior game by giving perpetual check, and finally, the drawn cases of K+Q versus K+P are wins in the endgame K+NR vs K+P. Of course there are positions that favor the Q, but all in all, my experience says they are equal.
It's an interesting idea, but would make for a more positional game with
more trading off of material. I would recommend these Rook-level pieces
perhaps for larger variants which would still include the usual knights
and
bishops.
I wish I had thought of this! The idea of finding the weakest possible pieces that still provide a chess-like game is inspired. For some reason, it reminded me of my attempt to create a <a href='../newideas.dir/construction.html'>chess variant construction set</a>. The concept of a flipping move to switch between capture-only and move-only is something I never thought of. On the whole, a well-thought-out, and aesthetically pleasing game. I must try it out sometime!
Question: can a wounded friend move over (but obviously not stop on) a square occupied by a mummy? i am not sure. if anybody wants to try this game with me by email, send to good7972@hotmail.com
Here's an amusing possible solution to the problems with this variant:
combine it with <a href='../other.dir/alice.html'>Alice Chess</a>.
<p>
Here's how it might go. You add a second board, like in Alice Chess,
except the 2nd board has reversed checkering: a1 is white, not black.
When a piece's move would otherwise cause it to move to a square of a
different color, it instead lands on the equivalent square of the
other board. Thus Knights always switch boards when they move, and
Bishops never switch boards.
<p>
There are a number of ways to handle switching boards:
<p>
<ul>
<li>Alice Chess-style. The move on the board on which the piece
starts must be legal as in orthochess, and the square on the other
board must be empty.</li>
<p>
<li>The Plunge. A piece moving to another color may only to move to
a square that is empty on their current board, then they plunge through
the board to the equivalent square on the other board, capturing any
opposing pieces they land on, except for Pawns who may not plunge to
occupied squares.</li>
<p>
<li>The Switch-a-roo. A piece makes a normal orthochess move on the board
on which it starts, and then, if the destination square is of a different
color than the piece's starting square, it moves to an equivalent
position on the other board. If the space on the other board is occupied,
then the piece occupying that space is moved to the space just landed on on
the board that the moving piece started on. This version actually allows
Bishops on the 2nd board.</li>
<p>
<li>The Last Square. The piece's move is as normal, except that if the
piece would land on a color of square different from which it started, the
last square of its move is the equivalent space on the other board, and the
move does not pass through what would be the final square of its move in
orthochess. The last square on the board on which the board-changing piece
moved from may be occupied by a friendly or opposing piece -- it doesn't
matter as the moving piece does not pass through it.
</ul>
<p>
I don't know which would be best.
It would be nice if a place to click to create a new subject at the top
of the comments page. Right now, as far as I can tell, you have to page
down until you find an existing thread, and click there.
The discussion of piece values and the purpose of the variant for
<a href='../diffsetup.dir/chigorin.html'>Chigorin Chess</a> reminded me
of a conceptually-related idea I had a while ago I called Rook-Level Chess.
<p>
<h4>Rook-Level Chess</h4>
<p>
The idea I wanted to explore in Rook-Level Chess is: how would the play of
Chess be affected if the Rook, the Knight and the Bishop all had
approximately the same value? It seemed to me that threats would be
harder at the very least. Anyway, drawing on Ralph Betza's work on the
value of Chess pieces I selected stronger Knights and Bishops that retained
some of the character of the existing pieces: for Knights I used NW (Knight
+ Wazir or Marquis), for Bishops I used BD (Bishop + Dabbabah or Bede).
These pieces retain the color behavior of the pieces they replace: the
Marquis is color-changing, and the Bede is colorbound.
<p>
I sent this to David Paulowich, and asked him how he thought this would
affect exchanges. He replied that we would still prefer a Rook to a
Marquis and a Marquis to a Bede, as you could mate with a Rook + King vs
King, but not with Marquis + King vs King or Bede + King vs King, and he
still though color-switching pieces more valuable than colorbound ones,
other things being equal.
<h4>Rook-Level Chess II</h4>
<p>
Given the above comment, I wondered if the powered up Knight and Bishop
could retain <i>different</i> characteristics of the base piece? So, for
Rook-Level Chess II I replaced the Knight with ND (Knight + Dabbabah or
Vicount) and the Bishop with BW (Bishop + Ferz or Dragon-Horse). In this
case I retained that the Knight was a strictly leaping piece not attacking
adjacent pieces, and I retained that the Bishop was a non-jumping piece.
Are these pieces of equal value? And could you mate with Vicount + King
vs King? (Dragon-Horse + King vs King is a win.)
<h4>Discussion</h4>
<p>
I've played around with Rook-Level Chess a bit with Zillions for what it
is worth, but I strongly suspect it loses somethings that Chess has. If
nothing else, weak pieces can be fun since they can harass stronger pieces.
<p>
Other versions are of course possible. Given that Ralph has settled down
to rating the Crooked Bishop (zFF) as equal to a Rook (there being a brief
point where he was rating it at 1.5 Rooks), a Crooked Bishop might replace
the Bishop nicely.
<p>
I should eventually add these as modest variants.
Agree with gnohmon that there is an imbalance. Suggest reversing e-side
escalator and transposing one side's royals (e.g., Kd1 and Qe1).
My comment that Black was ahead was based on R+B vs R+N multiplied by pawn
promotion. The B vs N is probably just a wash -- maybe giving White some
early play but moving towards Black in mid-end play.
Leaving rubble pieces behind as the TronQueen slides is the problematic part, because (and I've run into this problem again and again) there's no (direct) way to generate a move that creates more than one piece. The solution that leaps to mind is to have so-called 'empty' squares be dummy pieces with no images, and turn multiple ones into Walls at the appropriate time (which is also problematic, but doable). That's probably what I'll have to do, but it means reimplementing all the Chess moves so that chess pieces are trading places with dummy pieces instead of moving to empty squares. Capturing means trading places with the captured piece and turning it into a dummy. There are lots of things that could go wrong and strange bugs that would surface. The two-board approach meant that the dummies could cover the underboard while the chess pieces moved about on the overboard. When you play the game, you only see one board. The second board occupies the same pixels. It's just an implementation device.
Don't use two boards... I suggest you download Rubble Chess (another one of my inventions, Z'd by Peter Aronson) and take it apart to find out how it worked. All you need to do is make variants of it where the <foo> leaves behind Rubble Pieces, for <foo> being any chess piece. (I don't think pawns would work very well, but...) You can also make special starts where the board starts full of walls (rubble chess start), etc... --Adam
The trouble with my Zillions implementation is, a piece that captures a Wall disappears until you make the board redraw itself. When the computer plays against itself, it's not a problem. But when a human captures a Wall, he needs to hit Ctrl-F twice or something. It would be an easy, easy thing for Zillions Development to fix. I guess it's my own fault for trying to make two boards, one on top of the other. I just thought it would be more elegant that way.
Um, okay, but Black has 2 doublings on each flank and W only one; and 1...a7-b6 already exploits a doubling to tie W down a tiny bit. Have you considered slanted escalators on a 9x9 board? On the 8x8 board, it seems to me that the clumsiness of Bishops should be regarded as an opportunity to find some other piece that fits the game better. Perhaps not as strong as a Rhinorider. Pieces have to use their own movement powers, so isn't it more of a staircase than an escalator? And so wouldn't ascending pieces get tired? It's too late at night, I'm getting silly.
gnohmon, you're wrong about a few things. first of all, while black rooks can control double files if they are on the a,b,g, or h files, a white rook on the b-file would control both the a-file and b-file, and likewise a white rook on the g-file controls both the g-file and h-file. Download the ZRF and you'll see. Bishops may seem weak but they may yet have a purpose in the game. It may be true that their ability to penetrate the other side of the board and attack is more difficult, but they'll still be pretty good as stay-at-home defenders. Note however that white bishops at a3 or h3 control very long diagonals (bishop at a3 attacks e8, bishop at h3 attacks d8) and while black may be able to control the outside files with his rooks faster, white should be able to occupy the escalator squares more quickly. In order that white does not get an overwhelming advantage in the game, I gave black the first move. Time will tell if the game is balanced sufficiently or not. Incidentally, if anyone who has ZILLIONS OF GAMES would like to play either SLANTED ESCALATOR CHESS, or SPINAL TAP CHESS http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/spinal-tap-chess.html or both, with me by email, drop me a line at DavidNYJfan@hotmail.com We can email each other the notation and record and save our games with ZILLIONS. What I really like about SLANTED ESCALATOR CHESS is that not only is there interesting connectivity around the board, but that it's going to be a bit challenging for each side to try to navigate the board to get to the other side and get a good attack going. Should make things very interesting!
Changes made as best I understood.
<p>
Alas, the Happy Editor song can never be written down or recorded, lest the
secret society of web editors silence y
Very interesting. 1. At first sight, the board seems unbalanced because a Black R at b6 attacks both b2 and c2, but a WR b3 does not get its power doubled. I would suggest that in the long run this advantage is much greater than W's advantage of first move. 2. The Bf1 can't go to c4, right? Perhaps Bishops should be replaced by something else. (Not zFF, that would increase Black's advantage.) 3. A Knightrider on a6 attacks both f2 and e2, right? And a Rose on h6 attacks both d3 and e3, and therefore... interesting.
It recently occurred to me that I might have named the Zombie an Iron Golem so that its dissolution by ichor would be a nethack reference. But perhaps that would have been inappropriate after all. Lovecraft never played a game of Nethack in his life.
Yes, I'm afraid that recursion (drat and drat again) must be explicitly
forbidden, which is too bad because it sounded like fun.
'Favors Black, you think? Then perhaps you will be willing to offer me substantial odds as we play a game for some enormous stake of money, perhaps a penny on a1 doubled on each successive square?' I had almost put the above statement into the story of getting a regular chessplayer to play Chigorin Chess, somewhere after the part where 'variant rhymes with deviant and that starts with d and rhymes with t and stands for trouble.', and way after the part where the regular chessplayer says with a sneer is that some kind of fairy chess.... (I'm not suggesting that you're the offensive non-PC 'regular chessplayer'; the misinformation about relative values of N and B is part of general unwisdom, that's all.) Read any monograph on the Chigorin Defense. You'll find that many players now believe the N to be superior in the early stages of the game, which agrees with my findings on the theory of chess values so I think it must be right. Given the advantage of the first move to go with the advantage of fast development, the *white* side in Chigorin Chess probably has a large advantage. In order to Castle K-side, Black needs to move two Pawns and two Bishops; and one of those P moves looks suspiciously like a weakening move. White can go 5.O-O at the earliest, but Black can choose to go 3...O-O; think about it! And, of course, this is the whole point of Chigorin Chess! You can get a 'regular chessplayer' to play, because he will want to prove that the Bishops are so much superior...
Shall we go with Tony Paletta's suggestion, and avoid all temporary powers
when calculating overprotection? It does make it simpler, and importantly
improves clarity.
You have trapped me and won the game of game-making! You suggested recursive, and I said 'sure, okay', and then you hoisteded me with me own petard by pointing out a most ingenious paradox, more ingenious than Doctors Einstein and Schweitzer. I am bereft, like an apprentice to Pilate. Where can I find an mp3 of busy editorial beavers whistling the 'Happy Editor' song as they undo a previous change?
Wow!! Who said theme doesn't count in abstract games? I want to play this, but I think I'm going to be disapointed when the pieces remain silent. I want to see a ZRF, but not too soon. Whoever does it needs to do a good job on the graphics, not to mention audio, to do the game justice. 'What eldritch noise did I hear?' Perhaps the screech of the El.
I thought this page was good becuase it gave you all the rules. They wer eeasy to understand and showed diagrams for furthur clarification
This variant seems to favor Black materially by at least a pawn.
Apart from the paradox problem, the need to take into account temporary powers makes assessment of overprotection a bit complicated. I would suggest ignoring temporary powers in assessing overprotection.
Absolutely great, in coherence of theme and originality!
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