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Truncating a comment which contains HTML code is non-trivial. Strange things happen when closing tags get truncated off the end. So, I have nothing against HTML-based comments, but since truncating them would involve much more work, I chose to simply avoid. My alternate approach may be to use a smaller font.
Why discriminate against non-HTML comments? I have no clue how to create an HTML comment, and feel slighted. (I do know what HTML stands for, however.)
I have made a change in the comment listing page. All non-HTML comments that are over 20 lines long are truncated at 20 lines with a link to view the entire comment. This was done is response to unusually long comments. I am not complaining about these comments, just trying to reduce the amount of scrolling required when browsing. Feel free to make alternate suggestions as this feedback/messaging system is a work-in-progress.
Wait, there's more. Statements: A Leaf Pile is subject to the effects of a Basilisk, and a petrified Leaf Pile cannot engulf anything. A petrified Leaf Pile can still engulf things that are pushed onto it, and it can still engulf things it is pushed onto. Conclusion: Second statement is true, and more fun. Corollary: A Go Away pushing a petrified Leaf Pile around can vacuum up all sorts of impedimenta. Statement: Any mobile piece except a Zombie within two squares of a Ghast must flee the Ghast, and no mobile piece except a Zombie may move of its own accord to a Ghast Square; the squares within the Ghast's range are called Ghast Squares. Clarification requested: If several pieces are under compulsion to flee a Ghast, but the Ghast moves off before the compulsions can all be satisfied, the compulsions no longer exist if the compelled pieces are no longer on Ghast squares. Additional statements: When you are under compulsion, you may make any move which removes the compulsion, but if you cannot satisfy the compulsion of at least one piece, you lose. The Human moves one square sideways, or one square straight forward, or one square diagonally forward, but only to an empty non-ichorous square. Hypothetical situation: Alabaster Human on f5, Obsidian Ghast moves to f6, creating compulsion for human to flee. Assume there is no other Alabaster piece under compulsion this move, and no saving move is possible. The Human can only move to e5, e6, g5, or g6. These squares are still adjacent to the Obsidian Ghast. Is this a win for Obsidian due to stalemate by compulsion?
1. Yes, the mummy has been engulfed. 2. 'ichor actually lasts nine plies' ---- hmmm. This relates to the specific case where a piece is compelled to move off. The ichor certainly lasts ten plies, so in this situation the ichor must have been created during your opponent's move. My thought was that since it will finish its evaporation at the end of your move, you can effectively satisfy the compulsion to move off by simply staying where you are; and at the end of your move the result is that you are no longer standing on icky ichor.
The Tripunch Terrors are a fine idea, whether or not they are balanced. For one thing, experience with them would refine my wild guess about the value of pieces that have to flip between movement and capture.
I am reviewing the document http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html and I need to know if I have interpreted it correctly. Statements: [A Leaf Pile] can move onto a non-ichorous non-Ghast square which contains a Mummy and at least one other piece. When a Leaf Pile makes its first voluntary move after engulfing something, it leaves behind a single Mummy; notice that this means no Mummy is left behind when a Leaf Pile that is digesting something is pushed. Conclusion: If a Leaf Pile engulfs a multiple occupancy square including a Mummy, and then is pushed, there is no Mummy remaining on that square. Statement: If the ichor will evaporate after you make your move but before your opponent moves, you can ignore it. Conclusion: That ichor actually lasts nine plies, not five moves. There will be more questions.
How do you know if you have a valuable chess board or not? I am not a chess player but recently found a game that is nothing like I have ever seen before. How would I know if it has any worth or not?
ZRF updated to fix multiple captures by Remover, revision displayed in
history is now 1.4 for latest version.
''values of Nemoroth pieces' -- quite impossible.' --- I was just joking here. I actually can't imagine how one could assign values, considering all the interactions. In regular chess, the only interaction is capture. 'Likewise Nemoroth with Different Armies. The various non-capture effects have values that are imho impossible to estimate numerically.' --- True, but it is possible to imagine other interactions that might be interesting. Several spring to mind (nature abhors a vacuum) but they could be as simple as ichor with different effects. One could even handicap by allowing the ichor of each player to dissipate at different rates. 'The useful Go Away has a value that depends entirely on what it can push, just for one example.' --- A trivially true statement. Ceteris paribus, a Knight that can capture a Queen is worth more than one that can capture a Bishop. I consider values to be a statistical guide, not a received truth, fun as they may be to study and play with. (Of course, I stink as a chess player, so what's my opinion worth?) It is likely that I may soon be playing Nemoroth against another human via email. We will be sure to post our observations. As a sidebar, there is really no assurance that any entity with which one communicates via email alone is actually human. We could all be alien anthropologists, who, thinking we are studying humans, are studying each other. The resulting theses would be feces.
It would seem that TERROR CHESS is identical to THE SULTAN'S GAME http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/sultan.html with the exception that the positions of the marshall and cardinal are reversed. THE SULTAN'S GAME pre-dates TERROR CHESS on this web site by three years. Nevertheless I still propose that my idea above for a variant of chess between different armies would be intriguing. Oh and I would suggest variants with and alternately without the 'Battle Move' when programming the ZRF for the above proposed new variant. Players can decide for themselves which they prefer to use.
How about the Tripunch Terrors, another army to compete against the Fabulous FIDEs? :-) King and Pawns are standard. The rest of the pieces are from Tripunch Chess, but they flip as pieces do in Weakest Chess- these pieces have capturing and non-capturing modes, and can flip (as a move) from one to the other. To keep the pawn line defended, the Reapers and Combine start in capturing mode; the others start in non-capturing mode. If flipping pieces are half as strong as regular pieces (and that seems to be the estimate in the Weakest Chess article), then the Tripunch Terrors are about 4 Pawns too strong as described. So we remove the ability to move as a Bishop from the Harvesters and Combine... and then we should have a game. So here's the official lineup: the Flipping Reaper, the Flipping Nightrider, the Flipping Aanca, and the Flipping... the Flipping... Give me some time. I'll come up with a name for that last one. :-D
The knight is clearly stronger than the rook: in the center of a crowded board, it can control 16 squares,which is more than the rook on an empty board. The value of this knight should be close to that of the bishop, a bit less,I guess. The rook is therefore the only minor piece, and the most difficult to develop.Opening is hard stuff. I suppose it consists in opening files or diagonales to make quick and violent attacks by exchanging pawns, and making gambits (the pawn's relative value to other pieces is decreased compared to fide chess).
I use a very simple rule for detrmining what's an
Ultima variant or not: if
the author calls it an Ultima variant, it is; if not, it isn't. So The Game of Nemoroth and my game
Interweave are not Ultima
variants since they don't call themselves that (although Interweave
describes itself has being sort of Ultima-like).
Examining this site and The Encyclopedia of Chess Variants, I find the following Ultima Variants:
- Bogart's Chess, which replaces a Chameleon and a Long Leaper with an Absorber (which picks up the capture method of each piece it captures) and a Golem, which only moves two but has to be captured twice (this was the inspiration for Golem Chess).
- Renaissance, which is played on a 9x9 board, and adds a Pusher, a Puller, a Resurrector, and a Bomb, and has a limited form of drops of captured pieces (using the Resurrector).
- Stupid, where each piece can move like an Ultima piece and an Orthochess piece.
- Ulti-Matem, except the Pawns have the moves of the Orthochess pieces they would be standing in front of, except for the King's Pawn which is a Double Knight Pawn which makes two Knight's moves in a row in any pattern.
- Ultimate Ultima which you described in this comment system here.
- Unorthodox Ultima, in which a Long Leaper and a Chameleon are replaced by a Neutalizer (which removes the ability to capture of adjacent pieces) and a Repeller which forces an opposing piece moved next to move as far away as possible.
I still think I'm right, but I'm not as sure anymore... I think I'm not fully applying the two-path for the f4/d4 - getting the full two path bonus twice would be 0.91 * 0.7 * 0.91 = 0.57967, just getting it once is 0.91 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.4459, and my method is in my first comment as 0.51793. So it is between the values of one and two two-path bonuses. Mostly I think it is right because the verbal description seems to be right, and you agreed with my math on turning that description into a formula. I think that formula is properly figuring out how much of a two-path bonus to give. Does this seem reasonable to you?
It would seem that I am not the first person to create a CV on an 11 by 11 board. (see my SPINAL TAP CHESS) It would be interesting to play a game of TERROR CHESS (for WHITE) vs. SPINAL TAP CHESS (for BLACK) as a game of Chess Between Different Armies !!! PETER ARONSON I challenge you to create a ZRF for such a game IMMEDIATELY!! :-) I could then challenge Brian Wong to a game by email! (if anyone has his address!) (mine is DavidNYJfan@hotmail.com) though I suspect that TERROR CHESS has the more powerful army! Then again who can say for sure? TERROR CHESS vs. SPINAL TAP CHESS A game of Chess Between Different Armies created by David Short with thanks to Brian Wong. a b c d e f g h i j k +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 11 |*R*|*S*|*W*|*V*|*Q*|*K*|*M*|*W*|*V*|*S*|*R*| 11 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 10 |*P*|*P*|*P*|*P*|*Cr|*Cr|*Cr|*P*|*P*|*P*|*P*| 10 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 9 | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | 9 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 8 |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| 8 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 7 | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | 7 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 6 |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| 6 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 5 | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | 5 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 4 |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| 4 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 3 | |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| |:::| | 3 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 2 |:P:| P |:P:| P |:P:| P |:P:| P |:P:| P |:P:| 2 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 1 | R |:B:| N |:C:| A |:K:| Q |:Mr| B |:N:| R | 1 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ a b c d e f g h i j k Diagram index: R- ROOK B- BISHOP N- KNIGHT C- CARDINAL A- AMAZON K- KING Q- QUEEN Mr- MARSHALL P- PAWN Cr- CRAB S- SQUIRE V- VICEROY W- WIZARD M- MINISTER Pawns move 1, 2, or 3 squares on their initial move and the en passant rule is the same as it is in OMEGACHESS. Each side may castle as its game's rules dictate.
Thanks for cooking my problem. I never claimed to be a good composer. Now, if you'll pardon me, I'll go sit in a corner and cry.
Have I overlooked something in the first version of the problem? 1. Ke3 d5 2. zBe2 gives mate in 2 moves. The second version looks fine (but does not exhibit the ability of the zB to pin two pieces at the same time). --J'org Knappen
Now that this comments page is up, I'd like to ask the regular readers of www.chessvariants.com to comment on Doublechess. Doublechess is the first chess variant which I invented, and I think it is my best one of all the ones I have created. It is my pride and joy. At the time I submitted it to this site I had learned that I was just a few months too late to enter it into the Large Variants contest that was being held at the time. What a pity! I feel that Doublechess would have been a very strong contender, but by the time I first learned of this site's existence, the deadline for submissions for the contest had passed. Doublechess' page on this site is unique in many ways. You won't find too many other games on this site which have sample games linked to it, and one of the games is annotated in detail. (The link to my 'Doublechess web site' is no longer valid.) Doublechess can be played by email on Richard's Play By Email server, and I frequently conduct Doublechess tournaments on PBM. The next one may be beginning in a few months and I will post an announcement about it here (as I did recently for the forthcoming Omegachess tournament which I will be running on PBM as well) when I am ready to begin it. Doublechess is a very simple variant. Simply lay two 8 by 8 chess boards side by side. Use two chess sets, and replace the second set of kings with a third set of queens. (if one does not have a third set of chess queen pieces handy, substitutes can be used until they are captured. Coins work well, for instance, a penny for a white queen and a nickel for a black queen.) Set up the first army of pieces in the traditional setup (RBNQKBRN) in files E to L and the second army out in the wings (RBNQ, QBNR) in files A to D and M to P. You will notice a few interesting strategic points about Doublechess. Opposing bishops start along the same diagonals as each other, often promting them to be quickly traded off if the opportunity presents itself. If they avoid an early exchange, bishops of like color can double themselves along the same diagonal to form a battery in much the same way that one might double their rooks along the same file in chess. Notice that whereas white begins with two dark squared bishops on the left side of the board, or queenside (in Doublechess terminology, the 'queenside' refers to files A to H, and 'kingside' refers to files I to P, mimicking the same sides of the boards which these terms refer to in regular chess), and black has two light squared bishops on the queenside. Likewise, white has two light squared bishops to start the game on the kingside, and black has two dark squared bishops on each side. Each side can try to exploit the other's weaknesses on light or dark squares on each half of the board. The way the board is set up, as players begin to develop their pieces and pawns, the pieces tend to engage each other on each half of the board in about the same amount of time as they do in regular chess. In the middle game it is often the case where pieces will be interacting with each other and threatening each other on each half of the board completely independent from what is going on on the other side of the board. In some ways then, Doublechess is like playing two games in one, though one really needs to look at the board as a whole to truly understand and appreciate the game. There are other strategic differences between Doublechess and regular chess which make my variant exciting and unique. It is more common to sacrifice material for attack in Doublechess than it is in regular chess, since one has so much material at one's disposal to attack with. In Doublechess then, obviously king safety becomes extremely important. Thus another axiom of dc is that it is quite possible to win despite a material disadvantage, more often than one can overcome such a deficit in regular chess. As long as one has enough pieces to launch an attack, they can make things interesting. I should also point out that the one rule that is unique and distinctive to Doublechess is the castling rule (see dc's page for full explanation of the castling rule), and the pros and cons of long castling vs. short castling can be long debated. It's another twist to the game which makes it interesting. One advantage that my variant has over other CVs is that it only uses orthodox pieces, so it is very easy to learn how to play. Perhaps more than any other CV, Doublechess has the 'feel' of regular chess. There is a ZRF file available for download at the bottom of Doublechess' page. I urge everyone who has not played it yet who owns ZILLIONS OF GAMES to download Doublechess and try it out. I welcome comments from everyone, pro or con, as to how they would rate Doublechess as a chess variant. What are this variants' strengths and weaknesses? Finally I would say that, although I realize I am very biased in the matter ;-) I feel that Doublechess is such an excellent variant that it deserves consideration as one of this site's 'Recognized Chess Variants' and as inventor of this game I am necessarily disqualified from nominating it to that position. Might someone else who has an equal appreciation for this game take up the gauntlet and nominate it along with an eloquent essay on my game's merits?
'Why is it that when I encounter an Ultima variant, it inevitably seems more complex than Ultima, not less?' What defines an Ultima variant? Is it possible that no game simpler than Ultima fits your definition of 'an Ultima variant'? At some unspecified time (1970s most likely) I collaborated with John Ishkanian on an Ultima variant named 'Ultimate Ultima'; I still have a copy and have seen it within the last few weeks but it would take me years to find it again (Phil Cohen probably still has a copy and can find it quickly). The premise was based on my idea that the duration of a game depends on the ratio of power to space; and we tried to create a playable game with so much power to space that games would rarely last longer than 4 moves -- this would be a great game for playing at lightspeed radio against an opponent in another star system! Four pages of dense and terse single-spaced typewriter text with characters out to the narrowest margins. Rules not all that complex, but interactions beyond belief. The Carrier (is this the right name?) could move like Q, but at each single step could pick up or drop pieces; and if you drop a Mixer it can rearrange all adjacent pieces (all of this happening within the context of the single=move multi-square move of the Carrier) and by rearranging a Transporter it could cause pieces to teleport to other squares, and if you teleported a Converter it could make enemy pieces yours and so on.) We spent probably 3 months hashing out the rules and then played 2 games, which lasted maybe 5 plies between them (I won both). That's my idea of complex. Compared to that, the Game of Nemoroth is so simple!
'But crazyhouse is better' -- interesting comment. What you call Crazyhouse is, I think, the 'Double Bughouse chess' to which the mimeographed magazine 'New England Double Bughouse Chess' was devoted in the 1970s. (That's how people communicated then. Inconvenient, slow, and expensive compared to the internet, but would you believe it people communicated with each other even before there was an internet! What a mindblowing idea, no?) Funny thing is, your comment makes me think that the last time I played that game you hadn't been born yet. Stalling was a bad consequence of the rules as they were then; have they fixed this? If you say it's better, you should say why you think it's better. By providing reasons, you might get people to respond with counter arguments, and once in a while they would convince you you were wrong and once in a while you would convince them and most of the time you'd have fun arguing but you wouldn't get anywhere. Welcome to the internet. Does the game you call crazyhouse require 4 players? Did you know that in the 1970s I described how you could play it with 2 teams of 100 players?
Thank you for finding my error. I'm wrong, so I take back my nyaah nyaaah. But you're also wrong. When you're really stuck with probabilities, you can use the laborious case-by-case analysis. With a zFF going from e1 to e5, if e3 is occupied it can't get there and f4/d4 deserves no two-path bonus. If e3 empty and both f2/d2 occupied, no twopath. If e3 empty and one of f2/d2 occupied, no two-path. If e3 empty and both f2/d2 empty, I was in error, twopath applies. I haven't worked out the correct number, but it's higher than mine, lower than yours, closer to mine than yours. You applied twopath in too many of these cases. I'm not sure to write this in a more general manner. (for example, zFF going from e1 to e9 on a larger board). I haven't worked out the number the laborious way, pending your agreement to this. You found an error, I think, but I think you were also wrong. I know you'll reply!
'rarely seen as much chatter' -- it's a combination of two things, I think; first the story is pretty good. You must understand that after I wrote it, I also read it, and even I was affected by it. The idea of the ancient Lovecraftian city that existed before the world was finished being built kinda grabs me. And the details that make it real (by the way, the reason that Nemoroth was destroyed when Luna was floated up into the sky after being built in its harbor was that the project was given to the lowest bidder) -- well,when I wrote it, in the heat of the moment I thought it was merely corroborative detail intended to add artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative, but when I read it, it sounded so suspension-of-disbeliefable and I could picture the city and the harbor and the Moon and the little boats carrying pieces of craters to the work site, and golly gee gosh how amazing. The second thing is that the game itself is pretty interesting. Although I was so caught up in the story that I really did a bad job of describing the game, it's non-trivial and it's very different (in terms of how it feels to play it) than most chesslike or ultimalike games. This *will* cause chatter, even in the most silent of times. Since The Game of Nemoroth came out shortly after I had said strongly that there wasn't enough chatter, well, what would you expect. :-) 'values of Nemoroth pieces' -- quite impossible. Likewise Nemoroth with Different Armies. The various non-capture effects have values that are imho impossible to estimate numerically. The useful Go Away has a value that depends entirely on what it can push, just for one example. In practice, I think the Zombie is most valuable, and the second tier contains the Go Away, the Basilisk, and the Leaf Pile. The Leaf Pile is so easy to use; an advanced Basilisk, even if it gets petrified (but you gotta calculate if the foe can push a Leaf Pile onto it!) can be crippling, and the Go Away transforms positions completely. But even the humble Human is strong. Leaving one's Basilisk at home invites the Humand to advance and petrify themselves in blocking positions. The Ghast is so powerful that it is outside the range of values. However, I have not yet played a game against myself where I captured a Ghast, so in effect the Ghast is always neutralized by the enemy Ghast. Pushing a statue to d4 or d5 neutralizes the enemy Ghast and allows you to reposition from b6 to f6; this happened once and was very strong. All in all, I like the way the game works.
In the Chess Cards variant, it seems that it is indeed possible to
achieve the maximum score of 990 points. Suppose that player A is dealt
bQ rQ rR rB yQ yR yB wB wN wP and player B is dealt bR bB bN bP rN rP yN
yP wQ wR. First A plays two red cards, and B must counter with two red
cards; then A plays two yellow cards and B must counter with two yellow
cards; then if A plays the black Queen, having sacrificed the other five
cards, B will be able to play five of his other cards but will be mated
on the tenth move. B can never gain the initiative, so with best play
by A the maximum mate score will necessarily ensue
... unless B sacrifices a card. Then again, any time that A plays his
last card on move 5 and B is facing certain defeat, he can certainly
sacrifice some cards so that the maximum score cannot be achieved.
Still, my game above seems to come as close as possible to this result.
<i>NOTE: the email address and phone number listed on the site appear to be non-responsive. It appears as if this company may be out of business. Anyone knowing any more information, please contact us.</i>
<p>--Editors.
I am attempting to locate one variant from the Sung Dynasty China (0960), Which has an extended king row, forward of which are two rows of pawns, forward are two major power pieces [ either named lance or archer] , forward of the archer is yet another row of pawns. Any info you might have on this game would be greatly appreciated. Thank You
Ultima is very interesting, I play it with Zillions (not strong). However, I tried to find game annotations and I could not find any. It would be nice if you could give some games and some open sources. I wonder if there exists opening and endgame theory. Gert Greeuw grw@geodelft.nl
I have known of Ultima for more than 30 yrs & I apppreciate yr authoritative treatment. I was introduced to it at the Providence Chess Club where it was played occasionally while waiting for a chess opponent. I have reservations about Abbott's corrective of the 'N' move limit, but I hv hd no chance to try it out. Thank u for asembling the info & presenting it so attractively. >pouliot[at]mailcity.com<
the most common time control for bughouse seems to be 3 0 on ICS's, and there, players may say anything to their partners, including flagging, time advantages, etc. Furthermore, players sit as long as they are up on time, and this makes sitting a part of the game. and players will sit until their time runs out if mated. First checkmate wins, regardless of the other board.
Great! The tandem chess rules were just the thing I was looking for :D
I thought pawns are not allowed to make a double-step on their first move. isn't it?
it took me at least 15 mininutes to complete download of this website. So far, not finish yet. Thanks
very good
Hi: The statement that 'You cannot put the opponent in check more than 3 times in a row with the same piece without either side moving any other piece' is incorrect. Rather than the number of checks being limited, it's the number of repeating 'cycles' (which is three cycles, or a triple-repetition, which in most cases, six checks). This common misconception seems to stem from Lau's book, Chinese Chess. We would be glad to discuss with you further on this issue. My e-mail is cci_xqr@hotmail.com Dave Woo Chinese Chess Institute USA
Make sure you add something about who made/created it and what year it was created.
Informative overview for the newcomer to Xiangqi, however, the descriptions assume the reader is already familiar with regular chess. Kim, Cape Town, South Africa
Thanks for the initial overview of this unknown game. I hadn't heard of Chinese Chess until tonight and simple curiousity sent me to your website. Now...I just want to play! With appreciation, tt
Very useful and informative. Thanks for your effort.
Raumschach is elegant in design (a good thing!) but not quite as good as it could be. The unicorn is far too weak to be a useful piece, and the king is so mobile that he is bound to be difficult to checkmate. I'm currently (5/15/01) working on these problems, and hope to have my new version ready for posting before too long. --Jim Aikin (jaikin@musicplayer.com)
I searched all over the internet for basic information on Hexagonal chess and this one website gives me more information than all other websites combined!
Hi, I have worked out a slightly different method of setting up Fischer random chess positions with a single six-sided die. It's fairly easy to memorizem because it follows logically from the positional rules of the game. As far as I can tell it will create all possible positions. Here it is: All die rolls are counted from the left side of the board from white's point of view and apply to remaining empty and 'legal' squares only. Because the king must be between both rooks, it can only occupy the central six squares on each side. Roll a die and place the king on one of the six 'central' squares. Now place the rooks. Roll a die for the left rook. If the number exceeds the number of squares on the left side of the king, roll again. Repeat for the right rook. If there is only one square to the right or left of the king, skip the rolls and simply place the rook. Now place the Bishops. Place the first bishop based on a die roll. If the roll value exceeds the number of remaining squares, roll again. Place the second bishop in a similar manner counting only the available squares of the opposite color of the already placed bishop. Place the queen with a die roll. If the die number is 4-6 then subtract 3 from its value (to minimize the number of rolls necessary.) Place the two knights on the last two squares. I have yet to study this method in detail to determine if it favors certain positions. A modification of the die roll procedure to minimize re-rolls is as follows: If there are 2-3 'legal' squares for the rooks or the second bishop take the remainder of the die in the 'modula' of the number of remaining squares. For example, if there are two legal squares for the left rook, and one rolls a 5, one counts this as a '1', as 1 is the remainder when one divides 5 by 2. If the roll had been a '4' one would count this as a '2'. In the case of 3 empty squares, one a '5' would count as a '2'. A '6' would count as a '3' and a '4' would count as a '1' (as in the queen roll, which will always have 3). This method will not work without bias when there are 4-6 legal squares remaining, and re-rolls must be employed. However, statistically speaking, fewer rolls will be necessary in such a case anyway. It is possible, though highly improbable, that one might require a very large number of rolls to finally 'nail down' a position for the rooks and bishops. But once they are placed, only 1 roll remains. What do you think? Brad Hoehne- Columbus, Ohio.
I have rarely seen so much chatter as for this game. (N.B. there is significant commentary on Nemoroth in the Yellow Journalism thread.) A couple of points: Is Nemoroth a chess variant? If gnohmon says it is, who am I to gainsay him? I am an 'inclusionist' when it comes to chess variants, anyway. It actually seems more like an Amazons variant, and there are other more chess-like games that make use of the 'shrinking board' mechanism, but what the heck. (Bob Abbott, who invented Ultima, did not think it was chess, because it did not use replacement captures. He was an 'exclusionist'.) When Nemoroth is refined, and the rules settle down, may we expect pages on 'The Value of the Nemoroth Pieces' and 'Nemoroth with Different Armies'? Should we reserve the name www.nemorothvariants.com? If interest remains high, how about the CVP sponsor a contest in Nemoroth problem composition?
How did I come to that conclusion? It wasn't a sin of commission, but
perhaps a sin of omission, or perhaps just my mistake. You wrote:
<blockquote>
There are cases in which pieces are compelled to move. When you are under compulsion, you may make any move which removes the compulsion, but if you cannot satisfy the compulsion of at least one piece, you lose. (Think of it as checkmate.)
</blockquote>
Somehow it didn't occur to me that unlike the Go Away, the Ghast's compulsion (and other compulsions) just affected what moves were required
and legal. An alternate wording might be something like:
<blockquote>
There are cases in which pieces are compelled to move. If you have any
compelled pieces, you must move one of them as your move, although you
may choose among your compelled pieces with legal moves. If you have
compelled pieces, and none of your compelled pieces have legal moves, you
are stalemated and thus lose.
</blockquote>
Strangely enough, compelled moves are a bit like capturing moves in
checkers, being higher priority than other moves.
1. 'B moves all compelled pieces' Oh, no. I'll have to read closely and try to see why you could have possibly thought that. Instead, 'B moves one compelled piece (or makes a saving move for it).' One move at a time. If you have compelled pieces, your moves are restricted, just like being in check except that compulsion is more powerful because if you have several compelled pieces the opponent has several moves of free action (can go around engulfing everything while you are helpless). 2. 'if you are compelled into a square which you must move off' no, the compelled move must be a legal move. You can't move onto ichor just because you're compelled. 3. petrified Leaf Pile could still engulf if pushed -- I like that, it's more consistent, I have made this change. 4. Simplified version of the game. Ah yes, a game for demon toddlers. I like that idea, too. 5. I planned to integrate the documents by making the official rules a link from the first doc; and therefore removing most of the Interactions section (just keep a few highlights).
'Is The Game of Nemoroth a Chess Variant?' I believe it is, though it stretches the boundaries. For me, the telling point is that there's a kind of checkmate (provided by compulsion). Because the basic condition of victory is stalemate, and because the pieces all have different moves, it would also stretch the boundaries to call it an ultima variant. The complexity of interactions of the pieces feels a bit Ultima-ish, though.
It's ok but crazyhouse is better.
>My verbal description is saying that the choice between the two paths is made >only once, and therefore the two-path probability correction should be made >only once in the calculation This works fine if the first step forces you to make a choice, but sometimes both directions are unblocked after the first step, so you still have a choice of which way to go when you get to the third step. A piece that moves 2 squares as a Crooked Bishop then started moving as a Rook would be easier to block than a Crooked Bishop is, as it would only get the two-path correction once. Likewise, a piece that made bigger zig-zags, going to c3 or g3 instead of e3, would get the higher number. Nyaah, nyaah! :)
A couple of tangental issues:
<hr>
Is <b>The Game of Nemoroth</b> a Chess Variant? It would rather depend on
who you asked. On one hand the game is clearly derived from Chess, but on
the other, some believe that a Royal Piece is the sine qa non of a Chess
Variant. Thus, one person classified V.R. Parton's game
<a href='../parton/100Squares.txt'>Damate</a> as not a Chess variant, even
though is played with Chess pieces (albeit using capture by overtaking),
while classifying my game
<a href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/games/towers.html'>Towers</a> as
a Chess Variant, which I did not. Myself, I like a loose definition of
Chess Variant.
<hr>
Why is it that when I encounter an Ultima variant, it inevitably seems
more complex than Ultima, not less? (This includes David Howe's and my
as-yet-unpublished game of <b>Rococo</b> (I haven't forgotten about it
David!)). I guess there something about the game that says: 'this could
be even more complex, try it!'
Some initial thoughts upon reading <b>The Official Rules of Nemoroth</b>.
(Some of which should have been raised by the previous article.)
<p>
<ul>
<li>The Ghast. How is 'two squares' defined -- does a Ghast frighten a
piece a Knight's move away from it?</li>
<p>
<li>Compelled Moves. It is really unclear reading both documents just
<i>who</i> moves the fleeing pieces, the owner or the player who causes
them to flee.</li> I'm assuming the following sequence:
<ol>
<li>A's Ghast is move; A's turn is over.</li>
<li>B moves all compelled pieces, in the order they choose; B's turn is
over.</li>
<li>If B caused any compelled moves, then A must make them as necessary,
otherwise, A may move as they please.</li>
</ol>
If the above is the case, if B's resolution of compelled moves caused
further compelled moves for B (by screaming 'Go Away' at an opposing
Ghast), are they resolved in that turn? If there are multiple such moves
(as B 'ping-pongs' A's Ghast between two Go Aways), could a piece make
multiple compelled moves in a turn this way?
<p>
For that matter, if you are compelled into a square which you must move off
of, is that resolved the same turn or the following turn?</li>
<p>
<li>Petrified Leaf Piles. I think I would have assumed a petrified Leaf
Pile could still engulf if pushed, but the rules state otherwise. I guess
that the assumption is that it isn't mobile enough to engulf anything
anymore.</li>
<p>
<li>The Interaction Matrix. If you actually created a matrix of all the
possible interactions, it might be nice to include it in document as a
table.</li>
<p>
<li>A simplified version of this game could have it when any piece is
pushed into an occupied square, all pieces in the square are crushed and
eliminated, and when a piece is pushed onto an ichorous square, it and the
ichor are also eliminated. This might be useful for starting players.</li>
</ul>
How do you plan to combine the documents? Take the first part of the
original followed by the new? Or perhaps a detailed merging? Or perhaps
just bring the first into compliance with the second, and then have the
second as a link from the first?
<hr>
I am just as glad to have missed the early days of i18n (I was aware of all
the weirdness, but was involved more things like the stability of floating
point numbers through multiple operations in those days).
'First off, it is quite interesting to instead of picking a magic number as the chance of a square being empty, calculate the value for everything between 32 pieces on the board and 3 pieces on the board. Currently I'm then just averaging all the numbers,' I've done that, too. The problem is, if the only reason you accept the results is because they are similar to the results given by the magic number, then the results have no special validity, they mean nothing more than the magic results. So why add the extra computational burden? If, on the other hand, you had a sound and convincing theory of why averaging the results was correct, that would be a different story. 'This concept seems to be directly related to distance.' Actually, I think I'd call it 'speed'. I'm pretty sure that I've played with those numbers but gave up because I couldn't figure out what to do with them. Maybe you can; I encourage you to try.
>> Would 0.91 times 0.7 times 0.7 be correct? Yes, this is the answer >> to 'it can move there if either d2 or f2 is empty AND e3 is empty >> AND the corresponding square (d4 if d2, or f4 if f2) is empty'. > This isn't right (I think). It can move there if e3 is empty and > either d2 and d4 are empty or f2 and f4 are empty. So that's 0.7 * (1 > - (1 - 0.49) * (1 - 0.49) ), which works out to 0.51793, as compared > to 0.4459. I think the generalized equation, where X is the (always > even) number of squares moved, would be 0.7^(X/2 - 1) * (1 - (1 - > 0.7^(X/2))^2) (We're talking about the probability of the zFF being able to make a four step move, for example from e1 to e5.) My verbal description is saying that the choice between the two paths is made only once, and therefore the two-path probability correction should be made only once in the calculation; this gives me a simpler formula for doing the calc by hand. Upon review I am even more convinced that this is correct, but in order to feel perfectly secure I must find your error. You are saying 'if e3 empty and ((d2 empty and d4 empty) or (f2 empty and f4 empty))'. The verbal description is clearly correct, although it makes things more complicated when you extend to 4 step and 6 step moves. The probability that d2 empty and d4 empty is 0.49; the probability that p or q is (1 - ((1 - p) * (1 - q))). Ouch, that's convincing. Wouldn't another fair way of stating it be '(d2 empty and e3 empty and d4 empty) or (f2 and e3 and f4)'? But that gives me a completely different number, even higher. Aha! '(d2 and e3 and d4) and (f2 and e3 and f4)' is incorrect because in effect it applies the two-path correction to e3, but e3 non-empty blocks both paths! But then by the same token, your 'e3 and ((d2 and d4) or (f2 and f4))' must apply the two-path correction twice!! I'm right, you're wrong. Nyaah, nyaah! (If I were a licensed mathematician I would be able to say Q.E.D., but since I'm not I can only say nyaah nyaah.) That was difficult. My head hurts.
'Yellow is the color of mystery in Italy' is an arcane little i18n joke. A paperback pulp mystery story is colloquially called 'un giallo' (a yellow) because of its yellow cover. Even the publisher Mondadori uses the term, as its series is titled 'Il Giallo Mondadori'. Number 1331, 'Quella Bomba di Nero Wolfe' (Please Pass the Guilt) was published in 1974 and it is weekly, therefore the series began around 1948; but it also says 'new series', so the usage of a yellow in this sense may be older. This is *not* the sort of color usage that can get you into i18n trouble, though it sounds like the typical 'White is the color of death in China' warning, and that's the little joke. For true madness and horror, you should look into the methods of internationalization that were used in the days before the current standards existed....
Various and sundry ideas about calculating the value of chess pieces. First off, it is quite interesting to instead of picking a magic number as the chance of a square being empty, calculate the value for everything between 32 pieces on the board and 3 pieces on the board. Currently I'm then just averaging all the numbers, and it gives me numbers slightly higher than using 0.7 as the magic number (for Runners - Knights and other single step pieces are of course the same). One advantage of it is that it becomes easier to adjust to other starting setups - for Grand Chess I can calculate everything between 40 pieces on the board and 3, and it should work. With a magic number I'd have to guess what the new value should be, as it would probably be higher since the board starts emptier. One disadvantage is that I have no idea whether or not the numbers suck. :) Interesting embellishments could be added - social and anti-social characteristics could modify the values before they are averaged, and graphs of the values would be interesting. It would be interesting to compare the official armies from Chess with Different Armies at the final average and at each particular value. It might be possible to do something besides averaging based on the shape of the graph - the simplest idea would be if a piece declines in power, subtract a little from it's value but ignore the ending part, assuming that it will be traded off before the endgame. Secondly, I'm not sure what to do with the numbers, but it is interesting to calculate the average number of moves it takes a piece to get from one square to another, by putting the piece on each square in turn and then calculate the number of moves it takes to get for there to every other square. So for example a Rook (regardless of it's position on the board) can get to 15 squares in 1 move, 48 squares in 2 moves, and 1 square in 0 move (which I included for simplicity, but which should probably be left out) so the average would be 1.75. I've got some old numbers for this on my computer which are probably accurate, but I no longer know how I got them. Here's a sampling: Knight: 2.83 Bishop: 1.66 (can't get to half the squares) Rook: 1.75 Queen: 1.61 King: 3.69 Wazir: 5.25 Ferz: 3.65 (can't get to half the squares) This concept seems to be directly related to distance. Perhaps some method of weighting the squares could make it account for forwardness as well. Finally, on the value of Kings. They are generally considered to have infinite value, as losing them costs you the game. But what if you assume that the standard method is to lose when you have lost all your pieces, and that kings have the special disadvantage that losing it loses you the game? I first assumed this would make the value fairly negative, but preliminary testing in Zillions seems to indicate it is somewhere around zero. If it is zero, that would be very nifty, but I'll leave it to someone much better than me at chess to figure out it's true value.
For what it's worth, on Christian Freeling's Grand Chess site, under About Grand Chess, it says:
<blockquote>Finally, although the Queen may have the edge in the endgame, the Marshall is arguably the strongest piece, so it flanks the King in the center as does the Queen in Chess.</blockquote>
I'd think being on a 10x10 board would benefit the Queen more than the Chancellor/Marshall.
I'm not really a mathematician or stastician - I merely enjoy math and am somewhat talented at it. I have read your general theory of piece values - in fact, I think I've read it roughly ten times, starting back when you were still adding to it. I'm afraid I can't tell you how accurate it is, as I feel very much the midget when it comes to playing chess. (I think I may have read your theory of piece values more often than I have played chess in the last five years.) I've meant to e-mail you with various comments about it for many years now, but I never got around to it. This handy comment system makes it easy enough that I'll finally stop procrastinating, though. I'll start some new threads, I think. I hesitate to mention it because I'm currently working on the revision (which should suck less), but Fantasy Grand Chess is my chess variant with different armies. I didn't analyze things very thoroughly (mostly I just guessed at what looked right), and mostly assumed values would be the same on an 8x8 board as 10x10, so it needs work. (Which is what I'm currently doing.) I'm also making changes to help the theme, and dropping it down to a more manageable four armies. If there are any other numbers in particular you want me to check, let me know. I'm currently calculating for a Crooked Rook, which should be simple after the Bishop, and then I'm going to do mRcpR and RcpR.
Yellow is the color of mystery in Italy? I wonder if Robert Chambers knew
that. (Robert Chambers was an early writer of supernatural horror who's
work, particularly <u>The King in Yellow</u>, was cited as major influence
by Lovecraft and his circle.)
<p>
Repetition is now forbidden!
<p>
I have printed out your screed to study in the morning, when the sap rises
and the brain cells go off strike.
<p>
Forget the root beer or the Hennepin, what I want is a case of Diet Moxie.
It's the one form of soda that my kids will not filch.
<p>
(I have actually recently dived into the seas of i18n, actually -- talk
about your eldritch horrors! The subtle distinctions between UCS-2 and
UTF-16 will drive me mad, <strong>mad</strong> I say! <i>Mua, ha, ha,
ha . . .</i>)
Dear 'Editor in Yellow', Programmers who have junketed to i18n fora know that col[u]rs have various meaning in various cultures. For example, in Italian, yellow is the color of mystery.[1] http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html is a text which should be added as a supplemental and corrective link, but not just yet. My apologies for having made so many errors and rewrites and addenda. http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html should be read and criticized by our critical public until a critical mass of agreement is reached, and then the editor should step in, whether yellow or dark sea green 3. http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html should soon be on the cv pages, but first the multitude should fish in it for errors and omissions. http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html should someday be authoratative, but meanwhile, please allow me to grovel and cringe, O great Editor who knows not his ablative from his elboh, may I humbly beg you to please change for me one great omission in the original Nemoroth file? As stated in http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html, repetition of position is forbidden! Your humble supplicant is humbled with shame, how can I have omitted to say this? I be so ipse dissed that I'd almost seppuku but no, so much better to tofuku. I have disemboweled a bean curd to express my embare-ass-ment. By all means, treat http://www.panix.com/~gnohmon/nemofull.html as authoritative, and please accept from this humble supplicant a case of root beer, or if you prefer, a single bottle of Hennepin.
Excellent for the feedback, that is. You have no idea how hungry I have been for so many years to find a mathematician or statistician who would be in the mood to criticize my numbers or my methods and point out the errors that must be there. With all due respect, I give you this instant reply, but I do not examine the specifics of what you said nor do I respond to them. I am in the midst of other things and not in condition to reply. I give you my double-barrelled platinum promise that the specific numeric algorithmic probabilistic things you said will be closely and extensively examined by me and that a serious reply will be forthcoming. Meanwhile, literary criticism of your reply suggests that you agree with my basic method but merely cavil at a few of my specific applications. Is this right? If so, I celebrate. If not, I cerebrate. If you haven't read my general 'theory of piece values', please please do and if you can (though I hope you can't) tell me I'm full of it. The general public here believes in my numbers more than I believe in my numbers. Perhaps you can have the deciding vote, since paolo has declined to speak up. Did you know that a giant standing on a midget's shoulders can see further? Well, in doing this math stuff about piece values let me tell you I've always felt like a midget. But right now I can only write silly answers. I just spent a few hours writing serious. The promises I made in previous paragraphs are serious, though.
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